Desiree's note (5-2-2012): Although this entry is about a year-and-a-half old, it continues to be the most popular post on my website. Because many people every day still search out evidence as to whether Michael Jackson was gay (alternately, some discoverers of this entry are looking for evidence of Jackson not being gay), I urge readers of this piece to also read the other much longer entry about the findings presented here.
PLEASE CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK TO READ THE FULL AND UPDATED ANALYSIS OF THE "EXPLOSIVE PROOF" OF MICHAEL JACKSON'S HOMOSEXUALITY:
An Addendum to "Michael Jackson was gay"
As the title suggests, I have found evidence proving that Michael Jackson was indeed a homosexual (or, rather, had a definite and now tangible interest in males). However, before the proverbial 'reveal', let us briefly note some of the "Michael Jackson was gay" stories, whether they be believable or not, that have come out over the years...
Precursors to the real proof?
PLEASE CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK TO READ THE FULL AND UPDATED ANALYSIS OF THE "EXPLOSIVE PROOF" OF MICHAEL JACKSON'S HOMOSEXUALITY:
An Addendum to "Michael Jackson was gay"
___________________________________________________________________________
As the title suggests, I have found evidence proving that Michael Jackson was indeed a homosexual (or, rather, had a definite and now tangible interest in males). However, before the proverbial 'reveal', let us briefly note some of the "Michael Jackson was gay" stories, whether they be believable or not, that have come out over the years...
Precursors to the real proof?
I ask that the following be taken and processed in our heads because understanding anyone is a holistic endeavor. That is, while individual pieces of information about a person can be taken or dismissed at will and often on a context-neutral basis, it is much harder to ignore a breadth of information that ostensibly details a common theme. And, in the case of Michael Jackson's mysterious (some could argue possibly criminal) sexuality, the whole is often greater, and more accurate, than the sum of its individual parts.
Shortly after Michael's untimely death, investigative journalist Ian Halperin published his book Unmasked: The Final Years of Michael Jackson. Although Halperin spent roughly nine chapters rehashing pro-Michael Jackson spin regarding his child molestation cases in 1993 and 2005, claiming Michael been the victim of 'extortion', 'lies', and 'innuendo', one of the major attractions of his book was that he claimed to have spoken to some of Michael's gay lovers who confirmed the obvious: Michael Jackson was gay.
Shortly after Michael's untimely death, investigative journalist Ian Halperin published his book Unmasked: The Final Years of Michael Jackson. Although Halperin spent roughly nine chapters rehashing pro-Michael Jackson spin regarding his child molestation cases in 1993 and 2005, claiming Michael been the victim of 'extortion', 'lies', and 'innuendo', one of the major attractions of his book was that he claimed to have spoken to some of Michael's gay lovers who confirmed the obvious: Michael Jackson was gay.
Halperin even alleged that Michael had been a 'bottom'--the homosexual partner that is penetrated during sex--and would dress up as a woman when going out on late-night trysts while he lived in Las Vegas following his child molestation trial.
(My fanfiction along the tangent of Michael's late-night romps with his gay lovers available for reading here.)
However, the believability of Ian Halperin's claims are dependent upon Halperin's ability to prove that these alleged gay lovers--sworn to secrecy through typical Jacko confidentiality agreements--actually existed. But the de facto rule for investigative journalists is that they do not have to reveal their sources of confidential information. Since Halperin's alleged 'Michael Jackson gay lovers' could be neither proved or disproved, the whole story was quickly tossed to the wayside as yet another salacious tabloid rumor, perhaps even made up by the author himself to sell books.
It was then in May 2010 that I chronicled the tantalizing story of Jason Pfeiffer, an attractive but corpulent man, and his revelation that he had been in a two-month love affair with Michael.
There is no point in rehashing the whole story, given the above links, but Jason Pfeiffer did not strike anyone as a particularly believable sex partner for Michael due to his heft. Most people thought, at the very least, that the King of Pop would bed a svelte partner.
As of yet, there has been no one to come forward denouncing Jason's story as 'lies'* outside of Michael's family; however, it is well known that Michael Jackson was not close to his family and kept them out of his personal life. All we have is Dr. Arnold Klein's confirmation and Elizabeth Taylor's response to Klein's lack of scruples in airing out a patient's dirty laundry.
(* NOTE: Dr. Arnold Klein has since changed his story on Jason Pfeiffer; he has stated that Jason lied about his relationship with Michael. However, my own contact with Jason and talks with a mutual friend of ours has steadfastly convinced me that Klein's about-face was largely provoked by Jason Pfeiffer's lawsuit against him. PLEASE CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK FOR MORE INFORMATION: Jason Pfeiffer redux: Arnold Klein retracts his "Michael Jackson was gay" comments?)
(* NOTE: Dr. Arnold Klein has since changed his story on Jason Pfeiffer; he has stated that Jason lied about his relationship with Michael. However, my own contact with Jason and talks with a mutual friend of ours has steadfastly convinced me that Klein's about-face was largely provoked by Jason Pfeiffer's lawsuit against him. PLEASE CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK FOR MORE INFORMATION: Jason Pfeiffer redux: Arnold Klein retracts his "Michael Jackson was gay" comments?)
Taylor never disputed Klein's claim about Michael having been gay, nor did she ever clarify what she meant by her words. All of this caused many fans to either deny her words (or lack of them) through obfuscation or grow angry over the ambiguity. What Taylor had done was merely deride Michael Jackson's former dermatologist for having a big mouth. Despite the obviousness of her lack of a defense of Michael being a tacit confirmation of his homosexuality (or, rather, definite and now tangible interest in males), many fans simply dismissed it; in their dismissal of Taylor, Jackson fans could have missed out on a clue to their idol's conspicuous lack of female companions, let alone interest in them.
Looking in to this whole Jason/Jacko-Klein-Taylor tale, a reader of this blog went 'undercover' investigating Jason Pfeiffer and any web-available friends of his. One friend she came into contact with was a man named Paul Camuso, who had tweeted (look at the tweets around May 2010) in support of Jason following his Extra TV interview in which he revealed he'd been with Michael.
It was via Facebook that she got a hold of Camuso and he sent her the following message:
The support of Jason is strong. But again, if we give Michael Jackson the benefit of the doubt, that above support could be reasonably dismissed as nothing more than hearsay of an alleged relationship that may have never been. It does not mean Camuso himself is a liar or complicit in Jason's alleged 'con-game'; it simply means, because Camuso and Jason Pfeiffer are friends and friendship tends to breed trust, he was gullible enough to buy the story, even if it may not be true.
The alternative, of course, is that these individuals believed Jason because they knew Michael Jackson was, in fact, gay.
But Jason Pfeiffer was not the only man who'd alleged sexual contact (Jason did claim he and Michael's relationship was 'consummated', whatever that may entail) with Michael Jackson.
In April 2004, the late Liberace's ex-boyfriend, Scott Thorson, told the National Enquirer he and Michael had had gay sex back in 1979. That issue of the magazine is unavailable but this site provides an idea of what Thorson said:
The caveat to believing Thorson's story, however, is that Thorson has a long drug abuse history. Even though his use of drugs is theoretically irrelevant to the truthfulness of his claims, it justifiably raises a red flag. Perhaps Thorson could have concocted a story for the Enquirer because he was hurting for cash.
Given these circumstances, he proves to be a witness with serious credibility problems.
(NOTE: As of May 2012, Thorson is still saying that he and Jackson had a sexual relationship, according to this story from Entertainment Tonight:
It should be noted that 'Michael Jackson was gay' anecdotes from Ian Halperin, Jason Pfeiffer, and Scott Thorson are not the only stories coming out over the years that add to the idea Michael Jackson had a sexual interest in males. However, the reason they are mentioned here is due to the type of proof I found in support of Michael's alleged homosexuality: if their stories are true, they would corroborate the findings nicely; if not true, they provide evidence to the fact that, in addition to these new findings, Michael Jackson 'seemed so gay' to the point that these men believed that a story claiming Michael was gay would be believable and 'would stick'.
In that context, true or not true, these stories are relevant.
What about the massive collections of heterosexual pornography?
This is a fact that is frequently mentioned by Jackson fans, often out of context and lacking the benefit of multiple prospectives on why it was there and what it's presence could mean; the most important point for Jackson's mostly female fanbase is that it was there. But it is true: police did find lots of pornographic material in Michael's home, loads of it, enough to make Michael's most ardent female defenders blush.
A similar moment of unfamiliarity of the concept of 'Michael + women' occurred when Ronald Zonen questioned Brett Barnes, who'd traveled extensively with Michael while he was the current 'special friend' of choice:
There are innumerable examples of Michael's disinclination for women but I will not list them here. I will say, however, his collection of books showcasing naked men, sometimes engaged in graphic sexual activity, is not the type of collection you'd expect from a heterosexual man, especially a former Jehovah's Witness!
Maybe the notion of the heterosexual pornography being primarily for the boys is not so far-fetched. According to this story on the Smoking Gun, Omer Bhatti, who was questioned following the raid, became nervous when asked about porn:
Now, the reality is quite clear, no longer innuendo or cruel rumor, and the evidence speaks for itself: Michael Jackson had sex with men and his semen-soaked mattress proved it back in 2003.
Michael Jackson was gay. Anyone thinking otherwise--even going so far as to try to rationalize these explosive and irrefutable, scientifically-proven facts to provide Michael some possibility of heterosexuality--just need to accept it.
Michael had gay sex. The evidence is there, in black and white, to support this bombshell. What's it to you? Why do we even care if Michael was ever gay? He was; so what?
I will close with an excerpt from page 265 of the paperback edition of Michael Jackson: Unauthorized:
Scott also made claims to American tabloid the National Enquirer, alleging he had sex with pop star Michael Jackson. Their sex took place in 1979, shortly after they were introduced by Liberace in Las Vegas, Nevada. Scott recalls,
"The day Michael and I met we hit it off. We spent days running around Las Vegas together. Michael wanted to spend all his free time with me. We are only five months apart [both 20 y.o.] in age so we had a lot in common with each other."
Scott claims his relationship with Jackson intensified in London in the early 80s, where Liberace was performing and Jackson was working on a selection of songs with Paul. Scott continues,
"We were two young men extremely attracted to each other. You could've cut the sexual tension with a knife. I was standing only a few feet away from Michael when he motioned with his hand to come over to him and join him in bed. I climbed onto the bed. Our lovemaking session lasted about an hour."
Scott, who claims he had sex with Jackson again for the final time a day later at Lord Montague's house in the outskirts of London, says he visited the singer on two occasions years later at a hotel where he alleges Jackson was in possession of what looked like gay porn magazines featuring young boys.
While Scott's romance with Liberace later fizzled, his friendship with Jackson also deteriorated because of the singer's alleged porn habit. Scott later fell into a spiral of drug abuse and is now battling hepatitis C.
National Enquirer says it put Scott through a lie detector test over the claims--which he passed in the presence of an expert. And now Scott declares he's willing to testify about his alleged affair in Jackson's current child molestation case. He adds,
"If the district attorney wants to talk to me about my experiences with Michael Jackson I would be more than happy to tell him the truth. And if Michael tries to deny what I've said about our homosexual acts in London, I challenge him to take a polygraph. I did."Although entirely not as believable as Jason Pfeiffer (Jason, at least, had a man with undeniable proximity to Michael Jackson who could vouch for his story, not to mention another longtime Jackson pal, Elizabeth Taylor, didn't exactly refute Jason's story either), Scott Thorson's tales of sex with Michael Jackson could, in fact, be true. After all, since he is not the only man to claim gay sex with Michael, one could reasonably argue that that increases the probability of his claims having merit.
The caveat to believing Thorson's story, however, is that Thorson has a long drug abuse history. Even though his use of drugs is theoretically irrelevant to the truthfulness of his claims, it justifiably raises a red flag. Perhaps Thorson could have concocted a story for the Enquirer because he was hurting for cash.
Given these circumstances, he proves to be a witness with serious credibility problems.
(NOTE: As of May 2012, Thorson is still saying that he and Jackson had a sexual relationship, according to this story from Entertainment Tonight:
Today, Thorson drops a bombshell regarding Michael Jackson, claiming he and the King of Pop shared an intimate, sexual relationship in the eighties.It is unclear whether the story is true, but it is telling he continues to maintain it now that he is sober.)
"Michael and I had a relationship that... would cross the boundaries," Thorson reveals in an exclusive sit down with ET's Christina McLarty. "That's about all I'm comfortable saying… We were both young."
While he concedes that not many will believe that he and Michael were lovers, he says that the two became unlikely friends while he was dating Liberace. After a period of friendship, their relationship blossomed into more.
It should be noted that 'Michael Jackson was gay' anecdotes from Ian Halperin, Jason Pfeiffer, and Scott Thorson are not the only stories coming out over the years that add to the idea Michael Jackson had a sexual interest in males. However, the reason they are mentioned here is due to the type of proof I found in support of Michael's alleged homosexuality: if their stories are true, they would corroborate the findings nicely; if not true, they provide evidence to the fact that, in addition to these new findings, Michael Jackson 'seemed so gay' to the point that these men believed that a story claiming Michael was gay would be believable and 'would stick'.
In that context, true or not true, these stories are relevant.
What about the massive collections of heterosexual pornography?
This is a fact that is frequently mentioned by Jackson fans, often out of context and lacking the benefit of multiple prospectives on why it was there and what it's presence could mean; the most important point for Jackson's mostly female fanbase is that it was there. But it is true: police did find lots of pornographic material in Michael's home, loads of it, enough to make Michael's most ardent female defenders blush.
The fact Michael owned these heterosexual materials (more than what is listed above, also read here) would seem to suggest he had at least some particulate interest in women. As the argument often goes, "'Straight men' nearly always have pornography of women." This is a point I will not quibble with: men with a sexual interest in women also have an interest in pornographic images of women. However, this is a trite oversimplification, especially in Michael Jackson's case.
Although Michael did possess heterosexual pornography, there exists nuances.
For example, although Michael Jackson had commercial pornography featuring women, he also had expensive books featuring nude adult men, most notably a very graphic homosexuality 'primer' called Man: A sexual study of man, as well as a large collection of vintage Nudist periodicals featuring nude men and nude children--experts in pedophilia have often found that pedophiles will collect, specifically, Nudist magazines and images of these resorts because they feature naked children.
Additionally, the size of Michael's 'collection' of heterosexual pornography should emphasized. It was a collection, not a stash of magazines hidden between a mattress. Michael's female fans will typically cite that Michael was wealthy and, because of his wealth, could 'afford' such quantities. Pedophile experts instruct that size and variety (Michael's was as varied as it was massive) of pornographic materials in the home of someone accused of pedophilia is one of the most dependable factors in proving that that person has a sexual interest in children. Often these very large and very diverse collections serve as ways to lower the inhibition of male children and increase their arousal, making sexual victimization likely.
(Check out one of the most important pedophile typologies compiled here, published by the United States FBI, which details much of the above information.)
Because of these perfectly logical alternative explanations of Michael Jackson's porn collection being for the purpose of seducing the young boys that, quite frankly, shared his bed, it would be something of a 'rush to judgment' by Jackson defenders to believe that Michael's porn meant he was heterosexual, case closed. It would be especially hasty given that Michael's massive porn collection cannot be corroborated by an outward and obvious interest in the opposite sex: Michael seemed to have no interests whatsoever, as his failed marriages to women seem to suggest.
Ultimately, what the pornography means is entirely debatable and, therefore, cannot be used as any kind of infallible proof that Michael Jackson was a straight man.
The Big Reveal
Of course, in light of newly found evidence, the epic debate over Michael Jackson's 'heterosexuality' seems to be moot. Although it had been moot before, given the serious lack of female companions until after the Jordie Chandler scandal when, all of a sudden, Michael felt the need to be involved with a woman.
But let's get to the revelation I found as I was digging for documents.
In January 2005, Michael Jackson's defense team sought to exclude certain pieces of evidence they believed to be incendiary, prejudicial, and irrelevant to the case. These pieces of evidence were termed the "14 items", among them being any discussion of the 'Baby-dangling' incident, Michael's gratuitous plastic surgeries, Ray Chandler's All That Glitters, and Victor Gutierrez's Michael Jackson Was My Lover.
Apparently, the defense team was successful in their motion because none of the "14 items" on the list made it in front of the jury or even into the media (well, no report to which I am aware).
But it was "Item #13" that is of special interest in this post.
(read the original source document)
Did everyone read that carefully?
DNA analysis done on Michael Jackson's mattress uncovered the DNA of TWO UNKNOWN MALES, as well as the DNA from Michael Jackson himself. More DNA analysis uncovered the DNA of ANOTHER UNKNOWN MALE on the bed coverings.
For those too 'shocked' to do the math, IRREFUTABLE SCIENTIFIC TESTING found a total of four semen stains (referred to euphemistically as 'male DNA') on Michael 'womanizer' Jackson's bed.
Blood stains were also found on the mattress, as well as wine stains. From the search transcript:
It would seem that Michael was having a good time: wine, drugs (as evidenced by the blood), and sex.
(A NOTE ON SO-CALLED 'MALE DNA': It needs to be made very, very clear that what was called "male DNA" by the Defense in their "14 items" motion was SEMEN--this was a euphemism on their parts. It was the Prosecution's lab that did the testing on these samples and discovered that they were semen, as you will be able to note in the document link and photos below. It was not saliva, skin flakes, nail clippings, or any other cell that can yield genetic material. It was SEMEN, the biological substance that can only be deposited on mattresses, sheets, mattress pads, and in underwear by MALES.)
It should be noted that no DNA from any woman (that is, no vaginal secretions or menstrual blood) was found on Michael Jackson's bed, only the semen of males, including--and it does bear repeating--Michael Jackson's semen. There had also been semen from a male other than Michael in a pair of underwear in the laundry bag with the semen-stained bed sheets and Michael's own underwear.
From the prosecution's response:
Because the prosecution sought to still include the underwear in their case-in-chief, though it did not contain either the semen from Gavin or Star Arvizo, as proof of Gavin's claim that Michael Jackson would keep the semen-covered underwear in his possession (perhaps after sexual activity with males as well), the defense countered with the suggestion that the underwear in a laundry bag could have been from a guest or family member visiting the ranch. That explanation, however, does not explain the semen stains (referred to as 'male DNA' by Team Jackson) from two different males on Michael's mattress.
Also strange is the fact that, if the Defense's explanation of the semen-stained underwear from this third mystery male is to be seen as reasonable, why would Michael Jackson have his own semen-stained underwear with guests?
That does not seem likely. Those were Michael's nights and the evidence of his sexual activity with males in his own sheets on his own previously-stained mattress!
Interestingly enough, in that motion in response, the Defense stated this particular laundry bag was allegedly found in some sort of storage area at least eight months following Gavin's alleged molestation. But how does that disprove the notion Michael Jackson kept soiled underwear containing the semen from men (or from boys or teenage males) to whom he engaged in sexual activity (his own underwear, it bears repeating, was found with the sheets and the soiled underwear from the same unknown male)? Eight months seems a long time not to wash the linens, especially when he has a fleet of staff who can do the wash for him!
As a strange corroboration, soiled underwear had also been found in the storage unit obtained by New Jersey businessman Henry Vaccaro. (To note, any mention of Henry Vaccaro and the Jackson items found in his storage unit, labeled "Item #12" among the defense's "14 items", was to be barred.)
Ultimately, the underwear in question did not have relevant male DNA (semen from either Gavin or Star Arvizo) and was rightly excluded.
However, there had been reports from staff members that Michael did keep soiled sheets (semen, blood, and feces-encrusted) and segmented them from other laundry to be cleaned. A particularly gruesome report alleged that Michael Jackson's pre-trial stay at the Las Vegas Mirage Hotel resulted in a completely trashed room and feces-strewn sheets. There is no way to verify that story but Michael was blacklisted from staying at any of the hotels on the Las Vegas Strip following the incident.
All of the above, of course, is ancillary to the fact at hand: Michael Jackson's mattress, mattress pad, bed sheets, and a pair of underwear found in Michael's possession contained the semen of three different males.
If Michael had been uninterested in sex or deemed 'asexual' publicly, he was having sex with males in his own bed at Neverland. This was proven through scientific testing.
Putting it all together...
We have to recall that idea of all of this being a 'holistic endeavor' into understanding Michael Jackson's mysterious sexuality: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
So what about the aforementioned gay anecdotes? Is it possible that Halperin really did talk to Michael's gay lovers? How about Jason Pfeiffer--could he have really been in a short romantic relationship with Michael as he has suggested? Or what about Scott Thorson's tale? Could their stories now be more plausible, owing to the fact Michael had sexual contact with males?
And what of the rumors Michael Jackson had to face his whole career regarding his sexual orientation, the fact that the public (disregarding his fans) found it plausible that he was gay, so much so they continued to believe and pass on the rumors? What about Jermaine's assertion that all of the Jackson sons hated the idea of having a gay brother? What about Joe Jackson's blow-up at the word 'partner' in relation to Michael's love life?
For me, it always seemed rather obvious that Michael was gay; his legions of female fans simply refused to see what had been right in front of their faces. They cling to Lisa Marie Presley, for even though her union with Michael began suspiciously and ended very quickly, it was at least some proof Michael had been with a woman, someone ("Thank God!" they say) outside of his usual companions of choice: young boys.
Of course, these fans ignore the fact gay men can have sex with women, as well as the obvious goal of Michael's marriage with Lisa Marie: he wanted children and sex with a woman was the only way to have them, or so he believed at the time before he considered the Debbie Rowe option and using the donor sperm of white men.
But denial and spin--from friends, confidants, and family--does not erase truth, and, in this case, the truth had been established through the scientific analysis of semen stains on Michael Jackson's mattress.
What is quite interesting, retrospectively speaking, is that Michael's defense attorneys never tried to show any kind of evidence of Michael being with a woman. You would think that, had there been any women at all, they would have put them on the stand to repudiate the idea that Michael was sexually interested in young boys like Gavin Arvizo.
When Wade Robson was questioned by Tom Mesereau on the stand, the only woman he'd seen with Michael was Lisa Marie Presley, a dubious choice if there was any:
It seemed as if Tom Mesereau had to help young Wade: he could not easily recall any woman having been with Michael!7 Q. Have you seen Mr. Jackson with women in your8 lifetime?9 A. With what kind of woman? A woman that he’s10 in a relationship with?11 Q. That he’s been married to.12 A. Yeah, with Lisa Marie.
A similar moment of unfamiliarity of the concept of 'Michael + women' occurred when Ronald Zonen questioned Brett Barnes, who'd traveled extensively with Michael while he was the current 'special friend' of choice:
As we can see, both men had to evaluate the question before answering it because Michael Jackson never had women around him who were not working for him, save Lisa Marie Presley. The idea was evidently quite foreign to both of these 'special friends' who easily remembered each other, Jordie Chandler, and other boys.7 Q. Was there ever a woman traveling with Mr.8 Jackson while you were traveling with him?9 A. A woman?10 Q. Yes.11 A. I’m not -- what do you mean, though?12 Q. Somebody with whom he was close to. I don’t13 mean an assistant. I mean a friend or a girlfriend.14 A. Not that I recall.15 Q. At the time that you were traveling with him16 in South America, was he ever traveling with a17 woman? And I don’t mean an assistant. A18 girlfriend.19 MR. MESEREAU: Object as beyond the scope.20 THE COURT: Sustained.
There are innumerable examples of Michael's disinclination for women but I will not list them here. I will say, however, his collection of books showcasing naked men, sometimes engaged in graphic sexual activity, is not the type of collection you'd expect from a heterosexual man, especially a former Jehovah's Witness!
Maybe the notion of the heterosexual pornography being primarily for the boys is not so far-fetched. According to this story on the Smoking Gun, Omer Bhatti, who was questioned following the raid, became nervous when asked about porn:
Investigator Jeffrey Ellis testified [to the Grand Jury] that when he "broached the subject of pornography," [Omer] Bhatti became nervous and "seemed to have trouble forming a sentence. It was almost like a stutter." Ellis added that when he asked Bhatti a series of questions about the consumption of wine and alcohol and references to "Jesus Juice," he saw "that same type of uneasiness in him that I noticed when I started talking to him about pornography."Whatever the pornography was for (and I believe it was for the boys) and whatever fantasy it represented, the images stayed between the glossy magazine covers, never being realized.
Now, the reality is quite clear, no longer innuendo or cruel rumor, and the evidence speaks for itself: Michael Jackson had sex with men and his semen-soaked mattress proved it back in 2003.
Michael Jackson was gay. Anyone thinking otherwise--even going so far as to try to rationalize these explosive and irrefutable, scientifically-proven facts to provide Michael some possibility of heterosexuality--just need to accept it.
Michael had gay sex. The evidence is there, in black and white, to support this bombshell. What's it to you? Why do we even care if Michael was ever gay? He was; so what?
I will close with an excerpt from page 265 of the paperback edition of Michael Jackson: Unauthorized:
[Kenneth] Choi, who according to staffers "practically lived" at the ranch for a time, claimed that Michael developed an intimate friendship with him as well. Choi and Michael sat on Jackson's bed, and said Choi, "cuddled each other, laughed, and cried. I told him I loved him, and he said he loved me."
It was during one of these "cuddling" sessions in Michael's bedroom, Choi said, that Michael confided in him the reason he could never be intimate with a woman. "Only a woman," Michael claimed, "can destroy me."









271 comments:
1 – 200 of 271 Newer› Newest»Wow! How did you find that? I had heard there was a DNA analysis done and they just said they didn't find any Arvizo DNA, but that was the extent of it.
This is crazy! I mean I don't see how he could have all that semen in his mattress if it wasn't put there by sexual activity. Plus the blood stains that is telling too. Well, this is science and you can't argue with that.
I always believed Mike was gay and now the science backs it up. Liz Taylor was Mike's most ardent defender and I was personally surprised she didn't outright deny Klein and Jason's story. And even if she knew he was gay, she could have still denied his being gay, like the rest of his friends and family did.
I remember that all this 'straight" business only came out when he had been accused of child molestation. Like in 2003-2005. Interestingly enough, when I read Christopher Andersen's book, Mike's handlers, namely Dr. David Forecast and Beechy Cloclough(sp?) were saying Mike was not straight, but rather ASEXUAL so therefore he would never molest anyone man, woman, or child. So I'm assuming that saying he was straight, as they did in 2003-05 was better than saying he was asexual. And of course after his death, it was like the friends and family of Mike were trying to "clean" his image by saying he was straight or asexual (by asexual meaning he was more interested in his artform than any relationship).
In Maureen Orth's article "C.S.I. Neverland" she talked to a man named Gordon Novel who knew Mike around the time of the trial and he was trying to help him with the whole thing. For the article:
"On March 17, nearly a month into the trial, Novel went to Neverland to strategize. Maximo's first thought was that Michael was in need of "an extreme makeover" of what he calls "imaggio." Jackson drove him around the ranch in an old pickup truck. "He acted like he was scared silly," Novel told me. His fear was "six foot thick. He kept asking me what prison was like. Can he watch TV and movies there? He wanted me to stop the show." When I asked Novel what that meant, he related that Michael said, "'I want this trial stopped.' He said the judge and Sneddon had rigged the game."
The general was blunt with Jackson. "I told him, 'Get rid of the weird persona. You look like the weird pedophile. I'm talking about the hair, lipstick, eyebrows. Just be yourself, and say why you're doing it. Say that's your show-biz personality. It's just what you do to sell LPs.' He said, 'No. I just want to be me.'" The general also told him to find a female lover. "He didn't want to go with girls, do the romance thing either. He didn't want to come to Jesus; he thinks he's already religious. I said, 'Why didn't you stop fooling around with kids?' He said, 'I didn't want to.'"
Novel told Jackson that he could walk away free if he would just submit to a lie-detector test, undergo hypnosis, and take truth serum, which Novel would administer in "a controlled environment." While he was under the influence on video, Novel said, Jermaine could ask him questions, and they could distribute the video worldwide, proving his innocence. Jackson refused to take truth serum, Novel said, claiming it was against his religion."
Interesting who Mike didn't want to showcase himself as a ladykiller to quiet the media surrounding the child molestation allegations...but later he did manage to concoct some phony relationships for the fans' consumption.
Obviously, Mike was gay and he just should have came out the closet. But then again, he would never ever be able to continue his much desired sleepovers with little boys. And I wonder if any of the semen is from special friends? Hmmm...
J-M-H:
Some of that semen could be from special friends but I was trying to give Michael the benefit of the doubt.
But, whatever the age of the males who made the stain, they were MEN, not women. And that is significant.
Actually the document (no, I will not reveal how I unearthed it) was redacted and I had to dig a little deeper to find the original copy.
Michael's reluctance to take tests proving his innocence is telling, too. I know that people who tell fibs do not like to be put in stressful situations, ones where they would have to prove themselves to be telling the truth.
This is excellent detective work! So those rumors, since the 70's are true. It's a tragedy he didn't go through counseling. There is no excuse for molesting little boys. But if he'd gotten help, he could have overcome his childhood sexual abuse trauma and not continued the cycle of abuse, accepted his own sexuality, and had normal adult relations.
Due to his fondness for little boys and young teenagers, I have a difficult time giving him the benefit of the doubt. The semen stains were of other males. But they could have been any age.
Interesting story for you. I know a woman who identifies as lesbian. Yet, from time to time, she will sleep with a man. That Michael had sex with two women (later in his life, interestingly enough), still doesn't take away his preference for men. What a tragic life he had, of epic proportions.
Desiree,
You are quite a detective! Now is it possible to get the message out to all those homophobes from the Michael Jackson vindication sites? I had long suspected that he might have been gay, but this has definately provided proof, but 3 DIFFERENT MEN?!! He certainly knew how to enjoy himself.
sofi:
I was grinning ear-to-ear when I located the unsealed version of the defense's "14 items" motion.
It's quite obvious he was gay.
As for transmitting it to the homophobic fans, I don't do forums or any of that kind of thing. But their continued delusions are quite funny, to tell you the truth. I'm not in any rush...
I wish they'd just open their eyes. I know some people say, 'Is there any tangible evidence of him engaging in gay relations, such as video or photos?'
That's a straw man argument. One does not have to be filmed having gay sex to prove they are gay. But I think a mixed semen-soggy mattress and semen-soggy sheets is quite proof enough.
I am just trying to imagine the spin they'd try and do. It's quite sad.
I guess it is time for another gay fanfiction! ;-)
Len:
I gave Michael the benefit of the doubt but I do suspect that was the semen of the boys. Too bad they couldn't give DNA tests to people who came to the ranch but that would be impossible.
Michael had sex with Lisa Marie but I don't think that that was for anything besides trying to get her pregnant. I don't think it was because she and Michael were inflamed with passion for each other, no way!
I don't believe sexuality is fixed and set from birth. I think everyone is capable of bisexuality and homosexuality. I do believe, however, upbringing and environment, not choice, shape inclinations to fixed points.
For example, I am most definitely straight but I find Kim Kardashian physically charming.
I wish Michael would've come out the closet but I don't think his career would have survived it. He has way too many female fans.
J-M-H said above that if he was gay, she doesn't think the sleepovers would have been as successful. So he just played the asexual card. I know Wade Robson said if there was a grown man owning, as Michael did, 'Man, a sexual study of Man' with the graphic images of gay sex, he would not have allowed the grown man to have slept in the bed with a young boy.
Nice work Desiree, Whatever next! I'm surprised they didn't find a whole heap of sex toys aren't you? Why wasn't it relevant to bring this into the courtroom just to illustrate his predilection for males in the bed I wonder.
What's all this crap those bodyguards are talking then?
I don't think Michael was in love with Lisa Marie, either. A child between the King of Pop and the King of Rock's daughter would have been a cash cow and would have gotten him access to the entire Elvis Presley estate. I don't know what Lisa Marie's motives were. But Michael was a shrewd businessman and knew opportunity when it presented itself.
Hiltophouse:
The bodyguards are lying. I want to know why they were 'let go'. No one who wants to go and write a tell-all book is any kind of Michael Jackson friend.
I pay them no attention because they first claimed he'd had girlfriends and then, when fans pressed them, they stated they meant friends, not girlfriends and that the media had manipulated their words.
But inconsistency is usual an indicator of deception.
The prosecution was not allowed to bring any of evidence of Michael's gay sex into the court because it was irrelevant. I would've tried hard for it though. I imagine, knowing the hell Tom Sneddon went through to indict and try Michael back in 1994, they would have wanted to embarrass him. I know I would've!
There had been small dildos and vibrators in a storage facility Henry Vaccaro obtained but the storage facility had Janet Jackson's items in there, too. I have read from her own mouth that she uses those things.
But I do think Michael had an underwear fetish and he liked to keep the sheets after activity.
Len:
Total business arrangement, at least on Michael's end.
What do you make of item 14 of the items to be excluded from evidence - Underwear and Cocaine? How bizarre that cocaine should be found on someone's underwear - I can't imagine the scenario that would have got it there. There is much talk of bloodied underwear and sheets which is definitely creepy. The defence said that injections for vitiligo caused Jackson to 'dipense blood'. How very unsavoury - but is it true? Call me naive but apart from rough anal sex how does blood come to be on sheets anyhow?
Hilltophouse:
As for the underwear and cocaine, I couldn't imagine how any reasonable person could get cocaine on their underwear.
But that is what the defense said. However, I believe that the cocaine was being excreted in his blood (which would explain why it was on the bloodstained underwear) and/or being excreted from his sweat or other body secretions.
I have seen the lab document for the test and it included, having been found on the underwear, Demerol, an anti-histamine, an analgesic, and a Demerol derivative that comes with being exposed biologically to Demerol.
That the defense said it was from something like cocaine on the underwear, as opposed to being in the body secretions, is so ABSURD and typical defense spin.
It should be remembered that the People conducted the tests because they had the underwear, et al., not the defense. The People know the evidence better.
The People also said there was no injectable medication for vitiligo. Dr. Klein said on TV that they were treating Michael's 'vitiligo' with creams like Benoquin.
Another defense team lie, I'd say.
I agree with you: unless Michael was using his bed as a surgical table, I think the blood was from rough anal sex, too. It would certainly explain the semen!
Just a passing query. What do you know about the veracity of the stories earlier this decade about Michael holed up at the Mirage for weeks with shoals of boys, committing shed loads of damage including yet more unsavoury bedlinen??
I had only read that story in Diane Dimond's book. But I reckon it's true; yes, probably creating yet more dirty semen-encrusted sheets.
LOL.
In her book, she says these boys were street kids and he just brought them in.
Sounds like some rich guy paying for sex from troubled youth to me. I wish there was a news story on the Internet about all of this. I'd love a link.
I'd love a link, too. What was found in his bedroom was bad enough.
But this is the same as witnessing a train wreck. You know it's bad, you know you shouldn't watch. But that's all you can do.
There are also stories in Bob Jones about dirty sheets in Bob Jones book. Frank Dileo is supposed to have disposed of a faeces covered sheet and paid the housekeeping staff to keep quiet. Also Bob Jones mentions that during the Bad tour Jolie Levine found a sheet with a love letter on it to Jimmy Safechuck, they packed it up and took it with them so no one would see it to the press. Sheets as well as undies seem to be his thing!
You know what is so funny is that you, Desiree, have found scientific proof that Mike was gay (in the sense that he was having relations in his own bed with various men) and these delusional fans still want to act like it doesn't matter.
I mean anyone else could have a forensic analysis on their mattress and body fluids not their own, like semen or vaginal fluid, could be found and no body would even hesistate to say it was from sexual activity with the owner of the mattress. But if its Mike's mattress then someone must have put the semen there without him knowing about it, like a couple had relations in his bed while he was gone. WTF?!?!?!
That is lunacy. Mike put the semen there; it was his f-ing bed! And on top of that, there was absolutely no female secretions on his mattress where DNA could be extracted. Only male!
Why won't they see the facts that are right in front of them? There shouldn't be a f-ing double standard for him. Everyone else woth cum in their bed it's because of them; cum--from multiple origins--in innocent Peter Pan Wacko Jacko's bed its from something that didn't involve him.
O_o
The big question is, who are the mystery men? Lets throw up some names; Long time child/adult companion Frank Cascio Tyson? Omer Bhatti? Brett Barnes?!Even Macaulay is a possibility.
I must say Macaulay's behaviour at the funeral was very peculiar. He appeared to be laughing and joking with his girlfriend at such a sombre occasion, unlike the other grief stricken mourners. Also, why no words or tributes from very special friends Jimmy Safechuck, Jonathan Spence or Brett Barnes? He spent considerable time and money on those young men and their families over the years and not a word of thanks! Makes you wonder why the deafening silence.
In Victor Guiterrez's book, it's mentioned that mike had "dry semen and excrement" stained sheets that he wanted removed before the raid on Neverland in 1993. And also the book alleges that during this same time before the raid, security guards were ordered to take mike's "spring mattress, which most definitely carried evidence of sexual activity...Security guards also told of hiding evidence. 'I was in charge of taking the more private thins like the bottle of Vaseline, pants and traces of extrement, not stains, but excrement that he put in a bag so that Adrian [McManus] could wash it at another location.'" (pg 127)
I find it interesting that in this book, first published in 1996, would talk about semen stained sheets kept in a separate bag and a semen stained mattress long before these documents were written, which state that stained sheets and stained mattress were found in the 2003 raid.
Maybe this is evidence that Mike had been doing this for awhile.
Gutierrez also mentions that in Philip Lemarque's taped 1993 testimony in received by DA's investigator Carlos Perez, he stated that Mike watched porn with young boys in his theatre. That was also in Diane Dimond's book, mentioned by Stella Lemarque. Could it be that as I have long suspected, and Gavin Arvizo alleged, that Mike had the porn for the boys??
Oh Guiterrez says that the semen and excrement stained sheets were from relations with Brett Barnes. And we all know that Brett was still sleeping in Mike's bed until he was 19, longer than the other special friends.
Shari, you raised a great question. I think it would have been a real eye-opener if police had been able to find out whose semen those stains belonged to. I have a strange feeling we would recognize some of these people, like Omer Bhatti and Brett Barnes for instance.
Desiree finally you did it :D
Shari is interesting you bring Macaulay´s name because I noticed something, when Ian Halperin had a facebook account, I saw he had Macaulay Culkin added!! I doubt it was Ian who made him a friend request...now I ask,Mac was a great friend to Michael, if Ian had written outrageous lies, why would he befriend Ian on facebook?! Because fans it´s a thing, some fans befriended him just to spy his wall. But Mac, why would he do that?! I thought already if Ian didn´t interviewd him, even if it was just for the allegations.
BTW I´m the one who made the researches concerning Jason and Paul :P
See, another man complained with Klein! But he didn´t confirm or said it was a lie, either.
http://twitter.com/daleehood
@AWKMD I don't understand how you keep patients with this much drama in your practice, there's no safety or privacy.
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@AWKMD it's not standing in the spotlight that attracts, it's being
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But when Klein had that accident on his house with the fire, he was sympatetic:
@AWKMD sorry to hear about the fire, I hope there isn't a great deal of damage and I'm happy everyone is safe and well.
Thanks JMH and YouKnowWho...
Quite a revelation about Macaulay and Halperin. I will need to look into this a little more.
However what galls me about these fans is their sheer hypocrisy in regards to anything negative written about Michael. They accuse the media of being biased and one-sided yet they do the same on their vindication sites. That is why Desiree's blog is a godsend. She presents all the facts as she finds them. My sister recommended me to this blog and I am glad she did. Desiree has done an excellent job in presenting all sides of the argument, while getting the reader to look at things more objectively.
My annoyance at the fan sites stem from the fact that they themselves are equally guilty of erronous or misleading reporting. They claim that Jordie emancipated himself from both parents and lost all contact with them in 1995. On further investigation I found out that he was still in contact with his father, was living with him and even paid his medical bills until the 2005 attack by Evan. He had not seen his mother in 11 years as reportedly he blamed her for pimping him out to Michael. This fact is always overlooked by the fans. They constantly deride June Chandler's answers to cross exam by Mesereau in the 2005 trial, yet they do not present her questioning by Sneddon. I had to search high and low for the entire transcripts which presented her answers to both prosecution and defence. It also emerged at the trial that June's brother caught Michael and Jordie in bed and was displeased. The fans make no mention of this and much more. If they harp on about accurate reporting, they should be willing to do the same. And I am not what they classify as a hater, I still have alot of his songs on my IPOD.
Shari,
What's so funny about the fans IS the fact that they deliberately omit any other side but Mike's side. And everything out of Mesereau's mouth is the gospel truth. The prosecution aren't just "lying" when they questioned witnesses and found information and presented in in court that made Mike look less than innocent. Like they think that Sneddon would put his whole career on the line and make himself look like an idiot by presenting Mike's penis pics, Jordie's drawn description, and Rosibel Ferrufino-Smith's report of Jordie's "description" interview to the jury in open court if they didn't match; why would he do that? Obviously the pics matched Jordie's description, that's the only logical explanation!! I also think this post is a good example. I read some fan's blog and they were like "how do we know male DNA is semen?" like completely ignoring the fact that the prosecution in their brief clearly states the report said it was semen! I mean, what else is male DNA?!?!
And June's cross exam by Mesereau was funny to me. There was some fan on youtube saying she said she didn't think Mike molested Jordie. So i read, and of course that wasn't true. I think that would have been everywhere in the media at the time if that was what she said. But she did say as reported by Savannah Guthrie (I think it was her) of Court TV that she believed Mike would do it again.
Tom Mesereau got a lot of things wrong when he questioned her anyways. It was as if he didn't read the 1993 case at all. She wasn't involved in a lot of the goings on with Evan and that has been established but it was like Tom Mesereau wasn't even remotely aware of these facts. Tom is doodoo IMO.
shari:
Thank you for the blog complement. Although I am certainly biased (I do think Michael Jackson molested boys), I try to be fair and dole out criticism where it's due, regardless if it is to a side I agree with or not.
Who's your sister? Has she commented?
I agree with you that the vindication blogs are full of hypocrisy. I don't have a problem with people thinking Michael Jackson was innocent but I do have a problem with people thinking he was innocent and the only way they provide 'proof' as to his innocence is by trying to find holes in the testimonies or behaviors of his detractors, witnesses, or victims.
There is no scrutiny on Michael.
Of course, that is not any kind of way of proving innocence. It's just raising reasonable doubt. And reasonable doubt is not equivalent to innocence by any means!
I fully realize that I will not be able to unequivocally prove his guilt as much as fans will never, ever be able to prove his innocence.
But they should at least be honest: regardless of whether or not they believe he was a pedophile, they should admit that he had an obsession with boys. They should also cite from both sides, as I do.
No fear, shari, you are not a hater. You are simply someone with questions about these obvious inconsistencies in Michael's behaviors.
As for the semen on the sheets, I have a feeling it was from Omer Bhatti, at least one of the samples. The others, who knows. I have been told Omer Bhatti was more than Michael's play son, but that they were intimate.
All we know for sure about the semen/DNA is that they are from men...
youknowwho:
That's interesting about Mac Culkin and Ian Halperin. Perhaps he knew Halperin from something else. Ian is a filmmaker.
But it kind of makes you wonder if Ian's tales are truly off-base. I have to say that I do think Halperin is sleazy, through and through.
I'm thinking of some possibilities:
1. Mac doesn't care about Ian Halperin's claims about Michael. They have a business relationship/friendship. Regardless of what he says about Michael it won't matter.
2. Ian's claims are true so Mac wouldn't dispute them.
3. Mac doesn't know enough about Ian's claims so he doesn't dispute them.
or
4. Mac may not have been that close to Michael anymore or they fell out of touch, to the point maybe Mac thinks what Ian said is 'funny'.
That's all the possibilities I can think of.
The tweets directed at Klein are interesting, too. Klein was in on that whole thing, even if Jason's story was untrue. I really don't think he's any kind of friend for what he did...
I understand about Ian, he´s a journalist and we all know how journalists are. Even people who believes Michael was gay don´t trust Halperin because of that. As saying, did he ever talked really with that two men?
But I researched on his blog and noticed things he talked before that things happened, not all about Michael. About Polanski for example. Months BEFORE the allegations of him molesting a minor girl, Ian talked about him being a pedophile already! And Katherine suing AEG, an year after Ian saying she would do that...most strange it´s the 6 month of life prediction...he just failed in one day!
Desiree about Mac, I noticed he joined Ian on facebook shortly months after he published his book. All you listed is a possibility. I noticed also that Karen, Liz, the bodyguards, all made claims against Klein and Jason on facebook, but him...he rarely talks though. But I remember he said during the trial on 2005 that Michael made up with girls, Aaron Carter said the same thing. So it´s strange why he didn´t say anything again, defending him...Frank Cascio said as well he wasn´t a molester or gay. Dileo said the gay rumors was a nonsense during the 80´s. But Ian took a picture with him in front of Staples Center...(Dileo didn´t seem happy lol)
Charles Thomson claimed Michael was gay before he was a journalist...now he just says he was innocent of all charges. But I noticed he follows Ian on twitter, don´t know if it means anything...lol
Stuart Backerman, Michael´s official spokesman during 2002-2004, said the allegations were a total nonsense. Now he´s about to publishing a book "In the Court of The King", he made an interview when he was asked if Michael was gay he said he didn´t know but he didn´t have a real relationship with Lisa or Debbie.
Really, if I was a Michael friend, I would never say before cameras he was gay. Though there wasn´t any cameras proving Klein made a statement supporting Jason his tweets towards Liz prove it.
I read he said in an interview on Larry King that Michael was straight...
Recently I read that a woman who treated Michael in 1998 in London for inmsonia claimed he was gay. I don´t remember her name, she appeared on a german documentary.
Youknowwho:
Michael was gay and whatever Karen Faye, his bodyguards, Aaron Carter, or whoever say regarding his sexuality probably have no idea about the semen on his bed and sheets.
I personally think Karen Faye knows Michael's gay and she's covering it up to protect his legacy.
I think it's all a coverup. The inalienable proof was in the sheets and bed. Period. If at least for one period in his life, Michael Jackson had sex with men.
It's just already been confirmed. That's interesting info about the people who said he was gay.
I'd like to hear more about Stuart Backerman if you have a link.
Wow Desiree this post is fantastic, you must have moved heaven and earth to find some of this stuff. It sure goes a long way to prove that MJ did was gay, although now of course we all want to know who the DNA belonged to. Was it from his "special friends" or his "cousins" as he called them or was it from adult male friends? At best he was a gay man at worst a child molester but which one. Personally I would prefer to believe that he was gay, although I have very grave doubts concerning his preference for little boys. Suddenly when he died we were all supposed to forget these facts and "just listen to the music"! I am a little confused regarding the porn though, I know he had homo erotic books and vintage nudist mags, but he also had a truck load of hetero porn some of it dating back to the early 90's, surprising enough some dated back to when he was married to LMP. DId he use all of it to groom yung boys, perhaps or was he so confused that he also liked to look at it? I have heard it said that gay men also look at straight porn sometimes. Another thing that concerns me is, why was there none of Gavin's DNA at the scene? Just to add to the debate with regard to the cocaine in the undies debate, I have it on good authority that cocaine can be placed on the genitals to increase sexual pleasure, although this usually occurs with females. A practice I think we are agreed that MJ didn't know much it anything about! During my own investigations I have noticed the reference to cocaine more that once. Even Jermaine in the manuscript of his unfinished book mentions that cocaine was a factor in MJ's life. I also spoke via email with a PI who lives in Las Vegas who told me that MJ alledgedly had a coke addiction going back to the early 90's. Interesting stuff!
Sarah:
LOL about the cocaine in the genitals. I had this crazy idea that he could have put it on the underwear and then sniffed it from the soiled crotches!
Just food for thought. ;-)
Michael did seem to have an obvious underwear fetish.
Sarah it´s true, gay man can see straight porn too! I read a discussion on a gay site about that and some gay men admitted it! Some like it because the men in straight porn are more "macho man" lol.
I saw some pics in which he had some young man (yes all grown) by his side,who appeared in different photoshoots...he seemed be very confident with them. I will try to find the pics.
Desiree about Backerman, here is some links:
http://reconnectmj.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/thank-you-mr-backerman/
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Vancouver+publicist+Stuart+Backerman+secrets+Neverland+Ranch/1737637/story.html
http://michaeljacksonspokesman.com/
http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Transcript+John+Mackie+interview+with+Stuart+Backerman/1737792/story.html
I really hope the semen they found belonged to a grown men...
The bodyguards claimed again they´re having difficulties publishing their book because the publishers want to publish sensationalism and dirt...I was thinking, with the gay rumors that Michael suffered for a lifetime,the sensationalism would be he having girlfriends right? lol
Here is an answer from a fan:
"I read an article where they were really bashing you guys. It's not like you murdered anybody. Do these people just really not want the real truth out there or do they just need a chill pill? I was amazed by the hatred. Whatever you're doing, keep doing that, it's working."
Really the fans are very hypocrite. For example, an argument they give for Michael hadn´t been gay it´s that he was a very followed man and if he was gay it would be known already. That´s a good point but...where are the so called girlfriends? Nobody saw them as well...but the fans believed on it though!!
Some other fans seem to begin suspicious...look at that comment:
"i find it weird that he had like dozens of woman in his life..and he had girlfriends before the trial but none of them came out and say anything? wtf? seriously! do it for him and squash the paedophile/gay rumours, they can't even help him on that? he needs people to defend him in public yet these woman who could do so never ever come out and say anything!"
Other argument they use often is "the girls want privacy..." The bodyguards themselves say that. Funny because when Halperin claimed he couldn´t say that men names the fans thought "Of course how convenient! He knows it´s all lies!" But they´re ready to accept he had girlfriends who didn´t want to come out and want to keep their privacy...and there aren´t no proof as well!!
That man, Paul, seems to be a good friend of Arnie. Did you see the photo of Arnie on a litter, after the accident that burned his house? He´s the man nexto to him.
Youknowwho:
I agree. The logic of 'well, if he was gay, we would've known by now since he's so famous' can go for these alleged girlfriends, too. That they are not there it can be said that he didn't have any!
I think that's actually the case. Given the semen stains on his bed, there seems to be more evidence that shows those alleged girlfriends are just stunt women for him image. That's what I think, at least.
The reason the bodyguards are finding it hard to publish is probably because people are tired of Jackson stories, not to mention it's hard to believe he ever had girlfriends.
But, as hard as it may be to accept, I think the most evidence shows that he liked boys. I like to say those semen stains are from grown men, too, but they could be from young boys or teens, as well.
I personally feel that Michael struggled to accept his homosexuality especially growing up with a staunchly religious mother and in the shadows of alpha male brothers and Joe. He may also have received enough warnings about the perils of homosexuality and hellfire from his parents (especially Katherine)which might have caused him some self loathing. Therefore he probably thought child lovers was a less sinful substitute, even though he must have been aware of the danger of such actions. I wish he had seen a counsellor or a psychiatrist to sort out his problems instead of continuing to be self indulgent.
My sister Sofi [who has commented on this post]and I have been fans of Michael's since the Jackson 5 days. Yes we are that old! Growing up as children in England, our musical icons were Bob Marley and the Jackson 5. We avidly followed Mchael's career through the years and watched his physical transformation over time with some unease. Yet we still love him. When the 1993 allegations occurred, we did not want to believe it. But the subsequent settlement left me with a bitter taste and I became indifferent to him after that. I did not follow the 2005 trial with any interest, even though I knew it was an attempted shakedown by the family, so I did not know much of the details.
I am saddened by his death as I believe it could have been avoidable had he sought the appropriate help in order to face his demons. However I am astounded by the fans attempt to elevate him to demigod status and going as far as to demand death to the accusers. The worst action by them was the internet rumour stating that Jordie recanted his claims. Now even Jermaine and Katherine began believe it and Katherine recently referred to it in relation to Evan's suicide. They are making fools of themselves as there is no proof that anyone recanted their allegations. I do not think the family knew Michael at all and are clutching at straws in an attempt to portray him as a normal heterosexual man. I even read somewhere that they tried to hire a detective to track down his secret girlfriend without any success. If only they had accepted his sexuality in the first place and he was willing to come out in the open, his life may well had turned out differently.
Desiree,
I wish I could give Michael the benefit of the doubt, but I think the cum stains on the bed were from young boys or teens. As homophobic as America is, I can understand somebody with his fame not wanting his preference for men to be known. But his inappropriate "relations" with his "special" friends is too ominously there. I'd rather he'd secretly spent the night with men, instead of boys. Once again, therapy could have helped him to heal his mind and not continue the cycle of abuse, and it would have helped him embrace the adult gender he preferred.
I'm in the middle of reading "Dangerous Liaisons", right now. So, forgive me my cynical attitude. As somebody who was sexually abused, even though I definitely appreicate your caution, it's still hard to take. I can email you, later.
All this proves is that other men were in his bed, it doesn't prove it was at the same time as Jackson or that it was at sexual with Jackson. I Men have wet dreams all the time and they also masterbate together when they watch porn. Nice try though. It's also been said in some sources that Jackson had hemroids but don't quote me on that. As far as feces is not very common for feces to be a significant problem during anal sex unless of course the male partner has not had a bowel movement. A male parnter or female partner having anal sex would most likely give themsleves an enema beforehand if this was a problem. It's also important to note that one of Lisa Marie's friends said that she gravitated towards unconventional in regards to sex. Not saying the feces was from Lisa Marie, I also know plenty of straight men who have been umm copulated with (not sure how to phrase it politely) with a strap on by female. Not sure if any of that is relevent in this situation, just saying there is a whole world of possibilities with some who was as obessed with sex as Jackson was. (the collection of porn and all) Keep in mind too that even if Jackson had sex with men it does not prove he was gay, it just proves he was not straight he could have been bisexual. Just a thought. Carry on!
I recently inquired from someone I know who works in a DNA lab to see if they could tell the age of the owner of the DNA and apparently they can but the tests are very complicated. WTF? Why didn't they swab the likes of Omer Bhati, Brett Barnes and Wade Robson, I think he may have changed his mattress pad since Macaulay Culkin was sharing his bed in 1991 but I guess it's a possibility. Victor Guiterrez book also states that Webster was a part of the wanking parties as well Yuk! My money is on the "special friends" theory myself, although I can't work out why there is no DNA from Gavin or his brother Star. The defense tried to use this as evidence that Michael was innocent, because they knew the other i information could not be metioned. Frankly I would rather the world thought I was gay than a pedophile!
Alison:
"Men have wet dreams all the time and they also masterbate together when they watch porn. Nice try though."
Sure the semen could have been from a circle jerk or wet dreams but I doubt it. My mind does not process on the tamest possibilities but on the most reasonable conclusions. Given Michael's 'history'--the boys and the gay rumors--it's hard to fathom anything less than what I've reported and surmised in my post. Maybe he was masturbating with the boys but that still doesn't make him look good!
The shit stains (I prefer the word 'shit' despite it's coarseness) that have been alleged, over the years, on sheets are a wonderful circumstantial indicator of Michael's participation in anal sex. His assistant at the time Orietta Murdoch said he used enemas as well. More evidence.
Lisa Marie is a non-factor as far as I am concerned. Her habitual lying and self-deception regarding the obvious dubiousness of their relationship is enough to put your eyes in a perpetual roll!
Although I was not there, I doubt their sex life (I am trying not to laugh) was as normal as she claims. I think he wanted to get her pregnant. He did not like women.
"Keep in mind too that even if Jackson had sex with men it does not prove he was gay, it just proves he was not straight he could have been bisexual."
It's most certainly kept in mind although, again, I find the possibility dubious. At the end of the day, Michael Jackson was a pedophile with a prurient interest in young boys and young men. I doubt he could stand vagina outside of a centerfold, if the porn magazines were for his own gratification.
Alison, I should mention that I believe Michael had a thing for shit and soiled underwear.
shari:
Michael Jackson was a cash cow for the Jacksons and is still one. They will protect his legacy until the patriarch and matriarch die, at least. Seeing that Samuel Jackson died when he was 100, I think Joe and Katherine have at least 10 more years left in them.
But, as long as they are alive and the greed is there, Michael will always be straight and normal, maybe just a drug addict.
I wonder when people are going to let the truth out. all we ever see is image. I agree with you: if Michael was allowed to come out of the closet, he may have been different.
Of course, I believe he was a pedophile. I don't know if you can emerge loud and proud with that orientation...
I had a feeling your sister was sofi. You guys write similarly. :-)
Len:
I warned you! Carl Toms is a British intellectual and I find those types intimidating in their intelligence. If they know something or believe something, there is this air of unshakeable confidence. It's why his position is so disturbing.
I knew his pedophile sympathizing would upset you. It disgusted me, too, and I've never been abused. But these guys cannot extend their minds to the possibility their actions can harm or do harm.
They just want to have sex with kids. It's like the Conquistadors in the New World: they wanted gold and they wanted land. They made up horror stories about cannibals and other nonsense (not that they didn't cannibalize in the New World; it was just for edification purposes) to justify the brutality.
They have an end goal and are on a single track. That's why people like Toms are so disheartening and piss you off. The book is still very valuable in terms of Michael Jackson info. I hope you can get through it.
wow surely I learned a lot here! Who said Michael had hemoroids?! loool Honestly if he did how could he be a "bottom"? It would be painful! xD
About the feces...yeah gay men usualy use enemas before the anal intercourse but I heard that the bowels never stay well cleaned even with enemas...if that feces were from him...there are some possibilities I know from gay men:
-Some gay men have a fetish with feces and one of them (the bottom lol) defecates in front of other ewww lol
-They forgot to use an enema lol
-Or when they used an enema they can´t hold it until the bathroom
btw Michael´s favorite word was doo doo right? lol
Desiree, I don´t think people are tired from Michael stories because Stuart Backerman´s book will be published sometime. Maybe people simply don´t believe them?
YouKnowWho, I followed the links you posted for Stuart Backerman. They were definitely interesting. But some of the comments he made gave me the impression he was both covering up something and catering to Michael's rabid fans, at the same time. Plus, I followed the link in which Michael's rabid fans definitely express their adoration of him. On the other hand, the "open letter" was telling in what it omitted.
Desiree, I'm determined to plow my way through the book, all the way to the end. I'm just keeping a bottle of those chewable pills for acid stomach on hand. I can think of two movies pedophiles ought to see. One is from Canada, titled "The Boys from St. Vincent." The other is from Tunisia, titled "Man of Ashes." Both of address the terrible, negative impact adult sex acts with children has on them.
Sarah:
Too bad the State didn't push to more closely examine the evidence on the bed. My money's on the boys, too. If I was a gambler, I would wager Omer Bhatti's DNA was on the mattress.
Youknowwho:
(why can't I call you by your real name? LOL.)
Thank you for the info on enemas, etc. I think the possibilities you'd mentioned are definitely more likely than the ones Alison had listed.
It all just fits, you know?
Len:
I never fathomed you'd be taking the book so hard. But our experiences are different. Try as I might to understand and empathize with your situation, I guess I never really can...
Stomach acid pills? Tell me please you are being dramatic! (I hope you are.)
Desiree, not to worry! I am being dramatic about the stomach acid pills. His view does make my blood pressure rise, though. But mostly, I'd like to have a long conversation with that man, one where I do all the talking and he does all the listening.
Regardless, the book is insightful. On the one hand, it just confirms what I've been told, but in more detail. On the other hand, I have to appreciate his research. He obviously did a lot of careful study before writing the book.
Many anal sex guides will say feces is not usually a problem, it's just a myth. Feces is usually not at the opening of the anus but much further up the bowel unless of an impaction which is why I mentioned the enemas. Plus a penis or dildo going into the anus would push feces up the bowel further. The idea that a significant amount would be left in the bowel after an enema means that it was an unually ineffective enema. Anyone in the healthcare field would know this, which I thought you were some reason.
If he was into shit during sex that's another thing, some couples are doesn't mean they are homosexual it just means they are into kinky sex.
But lets put the feces asise for minute.
What about my other challenge, that semen in the same bed doesn't prove sexual activity. There are other ways for semen to be in the bed such as wet dreams and masturbating during porn. We know that Jackson was close to Frank Tyson and Omar Bhatti from the time they were children till the time they were adults. There is evidence to suggest they spent a significant amount of time together in the same room but it doesn't prove anything homosexual happened. Unusual maybe but it depends on who you ask, ever heard of a jerk circle before?
Well, by now it seems obvious Desiree that you and you're readers are going to believe what you want anyway. My stance has always been, we can speculate about Jackson's sexuality but that is really all it is speculation. None of us were there with him 24/7 so we can't really no anything absolute.
I tend to play both sides of the fence on this too because I see no shame in Jackson being gay or wanting to hide it, it should be seperate too from the pedifile accusation. I know many gay men that would be highly offended at the suggestion that being gay means they are capable of pedofilia. Pedofiles are attracted to children, not adults, if they target boys they are homosexual pedofiles meaning they are attracted to boys, not men.
Like I said I play both sides of the fence many times, nothing irritates me more than people who claim to know something as absolute. Even when Jason Phieffer and Arnie Klein say it's true, they also deny giving Jackson any unnecessary drugs before "This is it" rehearsals. Jackson follower fans and TMZ could tell you they saw Jackson come out of a Arnie's office looking drugged and disoriented. The gay story could be a cover up, or maybe it's true, all I know is the story that aired on accesshollywood aire 9 months after it was shot. After the DEA cleared Klein of charges the interivews pushing the Phieffer/Jackson gay storyline has ceased. (though one still aired later)
It's just food for thought, take it as you, but I encourage you to keep an open mind. I will do the same, but I like debate the issue, it's my nature.
Take care!
(I´m YouKnowWho LOL)
Len, I think the fans began to dislike Stuart after the 2009 interview. I have to admit I thought he would say Michael was gay after the question they did to him lol. He just said he didn´t know if he was but according to him Michael didn´t have sex with Lisa or Debbie (how can he possibly know it?)and he seem to had few interest on women. Like Mark Lester said for example, that he was afraid of women.
I wonder if he really doesn´t know or he´s just afraid to admit?
Desiree,I hope you didn´t get sick with my descriptions lol
I read somewhere that Boy George claimed sometime that Michael was gay. Anyone know something about it?
Desiree,
I am a fan and will remain a fan but hopefully not a delusional homophobic fan :). I have to admit that semen on his matress and bed sheets might mean some guys stuff, but coupled with all sorts of allegations most likely means gay sex he participated in. Still I believe he also had sex with women, or at least with Lisa Marie. I'm not saying I believe he was straight, but I believe he slept with LMP. To me the lmp story is very simple, like lmp herself :). he needed to get married at that time and she liked/loved him. she might have also thought of bringing him into scientology, but no master sham-plan existed btw them - that's what i believe. I also believe he liked Diana, somehow...and I don't believe the magazines were for the boys - since Jordi never mentioned them but Gavin did and he most prob lied. And why buy over 50 or Plumpers for 12 year old boys? Same about the article on the second g-spot? was he also educating the boys on what they should do once he's done with them?
i also believe he had 'phases' and i think if he molested boys it was mainly during a part of his life - late 80s to mid 90s. (that's another reason i don't believe gavin - he doesn't fit my timeframe :)) i believe a lot in that had to do with his religious stupid celebacy thing, his difficulty accepting his possible like of (adult) men - due to religion again, the predjudice around him, and his own bad image of himself - and also his own possible sexual abuse by men when a child. and for this i blame his parents - by the time he was an adult seeking the company of young boys it was too late for therapy. something had to have been done earlier - preferably not allowing the rapes he was allegedly subjected to...i believe after that paedo phase he had sex with adults, married and slept with at least one of his wives and then later in his life slept with men. i think the magazines sort of show that at least for part of his life he tried to like women. his early dates also show that - i believe he dated stephanie mills, i don't think she's pr and lying, esp since she said they did not have sex.
i still like to believe deep down he was a great guy - sensitive, intelligent and artistically very talented - but he came from such abusive and predjudiced background that his life probably become a mascarade of delusion and hypocrisy. i watched oprah and i was almost apalled - katherine was utterly ridiculous, i thought - what was the purpose of that interview anyway? other than money, i mean. 80 year old momma telling us he had nose jobs and his nose looked freakish in the end. i mean, couldn't we see that already? he was addicted to medication, family tried intervening but he was in denial -isn't that obvious when he died of propofol overdose?
I personally don't believe the fact that he might have been a paedophile diminishes his artistic legacy, or his pacifistic, humanitarian and environmentalist messages and efforts. yes, I know they were simplistic and maybe hypocritical at times, yet there was good in them,especially for the masses and for young people. But many can't distinguish between the man and the work of the man, and that's why we have all this ridiculousness from KF and his family denying stuff with such certainty, as if they were there 24/7 from his birth to his death...That's the only point I like LMP's stand on: I haven't witnessed molestation but can't pretend I was a fly on the wall when the alleged happened...
You make many interesting points Sly, I certainly agree with alot of what you say.
I too think it's very possible that Jackson had gay sex. I don't know however if that means he homosexual or bisexual. Even Jason said he assumed Jackson was bisexual. (assumed? so they never talked about it, that made me wonder)
What I can't figure out though is why all of the sudden so desperate to keep a secret AFTER the trial and not before. If Klein/Pheiffer are being truthful the office was the only safe place to meet where no one would find out. If Ian Halperin is being truthful Jackson would dress like a woman and meet gay lovers in rat infested hotels so no one would find out. However, if were to believe that the semen stains were from gay sex we have to believe that Jackson wasn't afraid of his employees, other inhabitants or visitors at neverland finding out? (It just seems strange to me)
Another thing I want to mention is how to we know the semen stains got there while in the presence of Jackson at the time. Were assuming he shared his bed with men whether we think he has sex with them or not. However, what if those other semen stains appeared when Jackson wasn't there, were they taken from the bed sheets or the actual mattress I can't remember. Jackson was known to stay in Vegas many times a year, isn't possible he let close friends like Frank Tyson, Omer Bhatti and who knows who else have his room while he was away.
All I'm saying is I don't see how 3 semen stains is irrefutable evidence that he was homosexual, it just means it's suggestable that he was. Also about the fact that no female secretions were found. I can't help but doubt that the prosecutor in his attempt to nail Jackson with a charge would include any female secretion evidence in his report even if it was found. It most likely wouldn't help his case against Jackson. I'm also not sure if female secretions would penetrate the bedsheets the same way semen would, not sure quite frankly.
Sly, the G-spot article definatley caught my eye as well. LOL.
Like you said no one with Jackson 24/7 from birth to death so there are many things will can't pretend to know. We can only speculate given what we have HEARD and READ from others accounts. The absolute truth on any of this died with Jackson and even if he were alive we still wouldn't know the absolute truth much to the frustration of both fans and haters.
Sly:
Wow, Miss Sly! You have finally come around! LOL.
I actually sort of agree with your timeline of events. I think Michael was most active with boys from Terry George to the mid 1990s with Omer Bhatti. So that's a good amount of time, enough to get caught and humiliated!
But I am coming around to the possibility Gavin Arvizo was molested. I'm not 100 percent, though, but I feel Janet was the reason the case went wrong (outside of Sneddon bungling it).
When it comes to the semen in the sheets and on the mattress, coupled with the lifetime of gay rumors, it's a logical conclusion that he was having sex with men. I think that was what he was going in his later life, too.
I do feel he was a dyed in the wood pedophile but perhaps he could have substituted the boys for men. Sandra Sutherland, who worked for Larry Feldman in 1993, said they'd interviewed young men as well, who claimed to have been picked up by Michael for one-night stands and were then given gifts and money when it was over.
He also hired two of his security guards in the early 2000s based on their looks alone, such as Chris Carter.
I just think this evidence here is a smoking gun and I find it bizarre I have to sort of defend it still. But que sera sera.
No, the porn (or at least some of it) was for the boys. Stella and Philip Lemarque were interviewed by police and stated they'd seen him watching porn in the theater with boys back in 1991. Remember, they wanted to sell stories before the 93 case, or before it was cool to label Jacko a pedophile.
I believe them but I do agree that I think part of it had to do with Michael trying to learn to be attracted to women. I actually always thought those mags were 'attempts' to be 'normal'.
I didn't catch the Oprah interview because I had a class but I heard is was typical Jackson spin and a money grab.
Alison:
I have to admit I find it funny that you are so vociferous in your insistence that I should keep an 'open mind' and yet you call Michael 'Jackson'.
If you are a fan, go ahead and admit it. It really is a rather flimsy disguise...
I will keep it short, though, because I have a test to study for at this moment.
At the end of the day it is speculation. However, the evidence of these materials on the bed of Michael Jackson makes it reasonable to believe he was having sex with men.
Again, I find it astounding that you wouldn't immediately think, even as a logical possibility, that the semen, the blood, the shit stains, the semen-soiled underwear together with Michael's own semen-soiled underwear, etc. was not an indication of his sex with men.
I've heard of denial but that really boggles my mind.
'Well, if there was shit, it could have been from him having sex with a woman wearing a strap on.' Are you kidding me? What woman could that have even been? He was never with women, ever.
Semen on the bed isn't immediately indicative of sexual activity? Sure it is! Wet dreams? Yes, they happen but they found three different semen samples, Alison. I know Michael liked boys sleeping in his bed but that's a little naive to suggest it was a wet dream.
Omer Bhatti was a sex partner, the last special friend. I know you think I'm insane for asserting that with such bravado but I've been told by someone with a reliable connection that he was having sexual contact with Michael Jackson for his career.
Again, you'd have to just couple this with all of the other rumors from his life. He was always accused of homosexuality and pedophilia, never of being a stud with women. So when I read a court document and see evidence of semen stains on his bed and sheets, I think: gay.
I too am irritated by the 'certainty' some people like to feign. Especially when that certainty revolves around Michael being a normal heterosexual guy. Or innocent of child molestation.
The latter really grinds my gears!
True, I am a fan but honestly have been only a casual fan my whole life. I seriously only know like a handful of his songs so I feel odd calling him MJ, Michael and I do get tired of typing Michael Jackson everytime.
You seemed like to type as well to dismiss any meanful debate from a "a fan", no matter how casual they might be so I figured why be a hypocrite and call him MJ or Michael when most of my life I've called him Michael Jackson. Honestly who isn't a fan of the music, and who hasn't been intrigued by the man's personal life.
So if that makes me a fan than so be it, I'm a fan :)
I find it interesting you didn't make my recent comment visible to other viewers. Why may I ask? I made some interesting comments to Sly that I believe homosexuality or bisexuality was a possibility. Anyway, you claim without a doubt that ummm ok I guess I'll call him MJ had NEVER been with a woman even though Lisa Marie's friends told Randy Taroberrelli(sp) that she had been with him. Or is that source lying, could be but then so could the source of Halperin, or Dimond or anyone else who has written a book about MJ. Don't forgot the maid who testified at the trial, it was revealed she tried to sell stories to tabloids about MJ and Lisa Marie's kinky sex life. Oh that's right I suppose she was lying, yes she probably was but then again she was telling the truth about the other stories that put MJ in a negative light. I think she was just a money hungry liar.
I'm trying Desiree to get you to see flaws in your logic. Clearly you want to believe what you want too.
I feel there is no way to know for sure but I thnk certain things weigh one way or the other.
The fact that you claim to KNOW with %100 percent certainty that MJ had NEVER been with a woman proves to me you are not openminded and not capable of intelligent debate.
So I guess I will leave this discussion, since you don't seem to want to debate it. Just remember until you look at both sides like I have you will be just as bad as the fanatics you like to insult.
I will never claim to know anything, at this point it is between MJ and God and anyone living who may have involved will also have to carry whatever if ever anything happened around with them, I guess.
Have fun in your quest to do, whatever it is your trying to do!
Sorry I meant to add something to that last post but I forgot, adding after the fact. "I have been told by someone with a reliable connection" and where have I heard that line before, lol. Okay carry on, it was nice chatting with you though, no hard feelings okay!
I'm sorry why doesn't semen stains indicate sexual activity? I think we are all being a litte naive. Also why would someome else's semem be in your bed if you weren't inviting them to be there. How many straight men have other mens DNA in their bed and we aren't talking about hair or skin or even saliva we are talking semen! Also same deal with the homo erotic books the false eyelashes the lipstick the female perfume,does that spell total masculinity to you? I must be missing something!
Alison:
Blogger has an automatic spam detection and sometimes comments are siphoned into the spam folder. Sometimes someone will leave a comment while I am commenting to others and I don't notice it until after the fact.
Anyway, I never said Michael had never been with a woman. I said he didn't like women. That is a difference. I believe he liked men and preferred boys/men over women in terms of sex.
I never said he didn't have sex with Lisa Marie Presley. I have never said that. I do believe they had sexual relations but was it for pleasure? Was it for the joining of a husband and wife in love?
I doubt it. He wanted to get her pregnant.
I cannot disclose my source of information, unfortunately, but it's not Diane Dimond, if that's what you think. It's not a dumpster out back, either. It is a reliable source with a connection to the music industry and a famous musician in particular, that's all.
From this source, they say Michael and Grace Rwaramba were together although he was verbally and emotionally abusive. Initially there was contact sexually, but he became drug addicted and she became a keeper.
If you want to disbelieve that's fine but I assure you I am not one of those psychotic nuts who lie about who they've talked to. I have no time for games because, honestly, I am not a fan of Michael Jackson and, as far as I am concerned, the only people who seem to lie are those who try to make him look less creepy.
Used to be a fan; not anymore. I thought I could give him a pass for his pedophilia but I can't.
The purpose of this blog is to highlight the reasonable suspicions surrounding Michael Jackson's boy obsession. That is what I'm trying to 'do'.
You are free to comment and debate and read, etc. But unless you can present me with evidence disproving my viewpoints or a truly novel way of looking at the information, I will not change my opinion on Michael Jackson.
This is my opinion, Alison: he was a self-hating black man who wanted to be white; he was gay, dabbling in bisexuality as a way to fix himself; his marriages were shams and phony; he was a pedophile; he was guilty of molesting probably all of his special friends, regardless of what they've said on the stand; he was a hardcore drug addict.
I also find many of his employees inexplicably believable. Kinky sex secrets are a real possibility...
The Taraborrelli anecdotes are fan-fodder. He writes his books for fans and they are greatly white-washed due to that and his opportunism. I find it hard to trust him.
I also don't see why you care about the seeming flaws in my logic (the flaws are doubtful, I must say).
My thing is this: I never go onto fan sites or forums because I have no desire to self-promote in such a way. I simply write this blog and those who drop in to see it may read and comment. Or not.
I had someone a few weeks back trying to suggest ways I can think about my research or improve it? She was promptly deleted after several exchanges because my time will not be wasted by someone who is an obstinate Jacko cheerleader.
My view is that if she had wanted to convince others to believe her viewpoints, she should start her own blog. There are many out there. However, trying to change my opinion and the way I run my blog will NOT be tolerated.
I often wonder why people would even do that? Should I take it as a compliment to my writing skills? Hmm...
I enjoy talking about these issues but, as I've mentioned, now is not a good time for me. I hope you return in the not-so-distant future, when I post other relevant things...
I guess we can speculate all we like concerning whether MJ or LMP had sex or not, they are the only 2 people who truly know the answer to that one. I can tell you from my own experience after seeing and hearing Diane Dimond say that the marriage was never consummated, I challenged her via email and she responded,she told me that she has a mutual family friend who knows the Presleys and that she has been told via this friend that LMP herself said that the marriage was never consummated. Just as a validation of that I listened to a podcast with Dana Pretzer that Diane did and she mentions these mutual friends but not anything about the sex issue. It's all rather confusing as we are supposed to believe that MJ wanted to have a baby with LMP and the reason the marriage failed was that she refused. Just a thought MJ was rather unconventional maybe he wanted her to either adopt a baby, or he wanted LMP to do a "Debbie Rowe" with babies,a sham marriage and no sex! It seems odd that he would go from a "normal" marriage to the strange bizarre union with DR. One thing I always found strange, why did they not subpoena LMP at MJ's trial as a defense witness, if he was so hetero surely a wife could dispell all the speculation about his preferences. They did subpoena DR for the prosection but she ended up doing a swell job for the defense in my opinion. She did however state that they had never shared a home and I think we all know they never shared a bed. If we believe Mark Lester and I'm not sure if we do, he said on GMA with Matt Lauer that MJ had "confided" in him that he had found the sexual act very difficult. Which does imply that he had a go! Remind me never to "confide" in Mark Lester!
I'm glad I came back to check in. Um you said in your post right above mine "what woman could that have been, he was never with a woman ever"
I thought by that comment you were saying he had never had sex with Lisa Marie, apparrently I misunderstood what you meant. Now you say that he had sexual contact with Grace the nanny, as well and you do believe the maid was telling the truth about the kinky sex stories, so I guess you do believe he was with women in some capacity you just don't believe it was sincere.
Fair enough. Atleast your not trying to cover up these bits of info. I guess it's hard for me to believe that MJ was all of those things in just in a fake pretend sense, maybe he was a better performer than I realized, lol. That he was with women and men in a sexual capacity as well as children. In my research (I'm somewhat in the health care field ) I found that many psychologists will say pedofiles aren't attracted to adults. There are some, but one of the selling points by most MJ haters is that they don't believe MJ could ever or was ever able to have sex with any woman not even Lisa Marie. They don't believe he could have ever had sex with men either. I must say as well that many psychologists would find it unsual for most pedofiles to have a number of adult sexual partners. Many psychologists believe pediphila is a sexual orientation, while others believe it is a mental illness or personality disorder of some type. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm saying the evidence you present does not seem irrefutable enough to make it an absolute. Anything in this world is possible, there is no denying that.
I do think it's possible however that he was gay or bisexual, hence all the secrecy surrounding his personal life. What made pedophillia so believable to many people like I mentioned) is that many didn't think of MJ as having adult sexual relationships either because he wasn't attracted or simply couldn't perform mainly with women or even that he allowed himself to live life as a closeted gay/bisexual man due to his religion. (It's what I've seen certain haters argue anyway)
When I started from my venture to find the truth I told myself I would look at everything and consider all possiblities. At some point I figured, the truth probably lies in the middle with alot of gray areas and I was making myself crazy trying to figure out what was real, what was rumor and what was a mix of the two.
I just then decided it wasn't that important anymore, MJ is dead and whatever demons he carried in life will now rest forever. I feel bad for anyone who was hurt by him, not necessarily pedofile victims (if there are any) but even just people who were cut of his life because they tried to help him.
And to end this, no I will probably not be coming back. You've now stated your opinion and I disagree with your opinion but I respect it nonetheless. I don't see how things could remain civil at this point and I believe in just walking away rather than getting into boxing matches with people.
Continue with what your doing though if you must. All I wish for you is to keep an open mind and open heart and try if you can to put yourself in MJ's position. He may have been screwed up but look into the reasons for why and not just the information that allegedly proves everything that was wrong with him. And lastly, don't let this consume you, I've seen this take over people's lives on both sides. I've had to take a step back myself at times to keep it from consuming me and my life.
Like I said before it's between MJ and god now for me, right now I try to be satified with that.
Bye now!
Alison:
See you!
Alison, I don't know if you'll come back to read this, but I'm going to give my two cents on the subject. I would rather Michael had adult relations with men, women, or both rather than children. I wouldn't even care if the intimacy was "vanilla" or kinky, so long as it was with consenting adults. Unfortunately, between the legal documents, research that has been conducted, and reliable sources, Michael was a pedophile.
I regard pedophilia as both an orientation and a mental illness. The irony is that pedophiles can and do have sexual relations with adults. The man who sexually abused me when I was a child was married. A dear friend was brutally shocked when she learned her husband was molesting little boys. She was definitely having sexual relations with him, on a regular basis. But given a choice, a pedophile compulsively desires children. Even if people don't want to believe Michel was a pedophile, they have to have considered it odd that wherever he went, he brought little boys with him and publicly aknowledged there was nothing wrong with sleeping with them. Even when he took Brooke Sheilds to the Grammy Awards, he was carrying Emmanuel Lewis in his arms.
I don't think facing the reality of the fact Michael was a pedophile makes somebody a so-called hater. If anything, I feel sorry for him because his family didn't care about his imploding mind; they just wanted the money. But facing the fact he was a pedophile just means that person enjoys his music and doesn't turn him into a demigod.
I like Desiree's blog because she carefully does her research before posting anything. I sincerely wish you could put aside your own bias and read what she finds, with an open mind.
Len, I was actually waiting to see if you would reply because I do like alot of what you said. I don't see how I have a bias, since most of my life I've really only been a fan of some of MJ's music and honeslty didn't care much about his personal life or the criminal charges until this past year. Before his death I remained neutral, infact even after his death I have remained mostly neutral. What I said is that I don't accept anything as absolute since I was not there 24/7. Yes I've read all the allegations and admit that much of it is troubling, but I none allegations ever amounted to charges and many are from secret sources close to the family or music industry or whatever. I'm not saying that it isn't true, but I don't believe it's an absolute truth either, so I refuse to accept an absolute stance on this. (Does that make sense, not saying you guys are wrong just saying I'm not committing to an absolute answer) Trust me I frustrate the hardcore fans by this stance as well cause they want me to committ to his absolute innocense and I won't do that.
I do find that Desiree has made up her mind about what she chooses to believe and so have you. I like to challenge people arguments when they claim to know something with 100 percent certainty. If people have made up there mind though, there is no reason to debate and I'm afraid there isn't anything new that anyone can tell me that would convince me 100 percent the closest I could get is 99.99 percent but I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near there. Maybe 50/50 if you want a number.
I do find Desiree arguments interesting and sometimes inconsistant which is why I challenge in the first place. That's what debates are for to point out flaws in someone logic and try to get closer to the truth and see which side of the argument can withstand the debate.
I find it interesting that Desiree went from saying explosive proof that MJ was gay, to telling me "MJ had never been with a woman ever" (maybe she was being sarcastic) to saying that she believes MJ had sex with Lisa Marie and then tells me the same source who confirmed Omer Bhatti was a sexual partner also confirmed he had sexual contact with Grace the nanny.
Apparrently I misunderstood her when she made the comment about him never having been with a women?
Look you are free to believe what you want, the fact is, there was never any credible evidence or testimoney in any criminal prooceding to prove the MJ was a pedofile. Even if there was evidence to prove he was gay, doesn't prove he was a pedofile. I've heard the arguments before about why did he surround himself with boys and admit to sleeping with him in his bed etc. Fact is, none of lived inside his head or lived his life, so we may never really know why or how he could have thought that behaviour was acceptable. (I do have my theories though)
I really could care less at this point if he was guilty, because like you said I enjoy the man's music, I enjoy how he inspired the world that is what I choose to focus on, his possible crimes are between him and god.
If somehow me being a fan of his music and humanitarian work makes me bias so be it.
However, I think you also have to acknowledge your own bias as well if you are a victim child sexual abuse and I am sorry to hear that you are. I would imagine if I was a victim perhaps I would be viewing this whole situation from a very different perspective as well.
Glad to hear you have found a way to appreciate the man irregardless of what you believe.
God bless!
Oh dear Alison
On one hand you say that you "couldn't care less" if MJ is guilty and then you sympathise with Len for his past. This is exactly problem with Mj's fans, singing and dancing well does not give you a free pass to act inappropriately with kids. How can you not "care" if MJ was guilty just as long as he can sing. That's the mentality that eventually led to his demise. Just keep him making money and just forget about the weirdness and brush it under the carpet. He needed help, they should have given it to him..............end of story.It floors me that he was just able to continue whilst his behaviour was excused, just because they liked Billie Jean. Let me tell you that I was a HUGE MJ fan, saw him in concert twice and even met him in 1996 in Australia 2 days after he married DR. The dude was weird, he couldn't look me in the eyes, he had heaps of kids around him and he had just got married! No romantic honeymoon there! But more of that another time! I find it appaling that people don't care that heaps of kids may have been vicitmised by this man but it's OK cos he could sing and did stuff for the planet! C'mon he paid off at least 3 kids to keep quiet, those are certainly not the actions of an innocent man.
Alison:
I lay out my argument quite clearly here on the blog. All you have to do is read it. Naturally, I don't expect people to read my writing and believe it as strongly as I do.
But if I can state it simply: based on my reading of court documents, transcripts, books (of all varieties), news articles, pro-Michael vindication/info blogs, watching interviews, etc. I believe there exists more than enough reasonable suspicion that Michael Jackson had a prurient interest in boys. I am also convinced Michael Jackson molested 'special friends' who claim to have never been victimized. But those are to be explored in later blog posts...
Also, in light of the findings that are the subject of this post, coupled with the lifetime of gay rumors; the sham marriages to Lisa Marie (suspect timing?) and Debbie Rowe (baby oven?); the boys, the boys, the boys, instead of women, in public; Jermaine Jackson stating they didn't want to imagine having a gay brother; Joe Jackson getting overly emotional at the little word 'partner' in his Louis Theroux interview; La Toya's claim Katherine called him a 'damn faggot'... it is not hard to label semen stains on his mattress, sheets, and in a pair of underwear kept with his own underwear 'explosive proof'.
Yes, you did misunderstand me: when I said he was never with women ever I didn't not mean he did not have sex with Lisa Marie or Grace or Debbie. In fact, I believe those are the only women (if Debbie at all) who he's been with.
I was just stating the fact that he was never seen publicly with women that were truly significant others. Brooke Shields says they were just friends.
But we saw how the Lisa union ended. The Debbie union was for children. And Grace became a keeper because of his drug addiction. Of course, I can never be too sure and information is only as good as its source, but I find all three 'wives'--as they were labeled in the NOFW--dubious.
(cont'd)
Michael married Lisa so soon after the Jordie Chandler scandal that even the most unobservant onlooker would be suspicious. And it crumbled so quickly, did it not? Some like to say the media is mean-spirited but I think celebrity and pop culture journalists have studied the rich and famous for so long that they know what is love and what is, quite frankly, utter bullshit to make a pedophile look less pedophilic!
Lisa Marie was a Scientologist and foisted it upon Michael, much to his chagrin. She always says, along with other 'blah', that she wanted to save him. Of course it may only be speculation that she wanted to use Scientology to save Michael but I don't think that is a stretch, seeing it was that religion which saved her.
But what is 'save', anyhow? I always thought, given Michael's drug use that became known, she was trying to save him from addiction (I don't believe he was drug-addicted in 1993; he lied). But Scientology also has a no tolerance policy on homosexuality, too. In fact, it is alleged John Travolta is a gay man and was married to Kelly Preston to 'switch' his orientation (I believe it!).
So, we don't know fully from what Lisa Marie wanted to save Michael. But it's reasonable she could have wanted to save him from a host of things, drugs and boys and men together.
Debbie is a non-factor and I strongly believe he never slept with her. I could be wrong. I don't mean to be rude but she's mangled.
Grace was most definitely significant in the last decade or so of his life, seeing she minded the children. I believe he must have cared for her enough to have what seems to be such a strong affection. They were very close friends. So, I was unsurprised when I was told my suspicions of them having been together were true.
But what does it all mean? Some people don't believe he and Lisa ever consummated their marriage. I don't think that's unreasonable, although I find it dubious.
I just don't think he wanted, desired women. I don't think he wanted to be with them or could even bring himself to love them like a heterosexual man would. I think Lisa Marie became wife because of the Jordie scandal. If that had never happened, the two would have remained platonic friends. No doubt about it!
My view is this: if Michael had been able to pay Jordie off without it breaking into the news media (and he tried!), he would have been having sex/sexual contact with young men and boys until the day he died.
That would have made him happy.
But the subject of this post is not pedophilia, although we don't know, do we, the age of the males depositing semen on his bed; this post is about Michael's being gay.
Michael Jackson liked men; he preferred them as friends in his inner circle; he surrounded himself with them. Period. In Rabbi Shmuley's book, Michael comes of as a right misogynist. He wants nothing to do with women. I found it interesting how he stated being transfixed by a man who was childlike.
He liked penis, for lack of a better phrase.
(cont'd)
I called this post 'explosive proof' because it was irrefutable that these samples existed. 'Explosive proof' in that, coupled with the rumors, it seems as if we have our nail in the coffin. Fans say thow do you know he was gay? Do you have tape or photos showing homosexuality?
No, of course not, but I did find evidence of him having 2 males semen on his mattress and a 3rd man's semen on his sheets and in a pair of underwear he had with his own soiled underwear. How about that?
I think that's where the denial sets in...
To me, a reasonable person would at least acknowledge, given Michael Jackson's conduct, demeanor, and lack of women, that the aforementioned evidence greatly tips the scale in the direction of him being a homosexual, or at least a very, very, very gay-leaning bisexual.
Unreasonable people, or people blinded by adoration, some of whom may want to just masturbate to Michael Jackson their fantasy man (and I'm not saying you are one of those people but I have encountered some that made me question along that tangent), would try to elaborate the most ridiculous and nonsensical conclusions to something as straight-forward as semen stains and semen-stained sheets and underwear on the possession of a man rumored to be gay his entire career!
Alison, you claim to be unbiased but your typed statements belie your protestation. You are very biased. You claim to be only a 'casual' fan yet you warn me not to become 'consumed' like you almost were; you use the word 'hater' to describe those to whom you disagree; and you make veiled threats 'but keep doing what you are doing, if you must'...
I am not a stupid person, Alison. On the contrary, I am a very intelligent person. I can see you get upset at the views being presented here. I didn't know we'd devolve into a 'boxing match' but you seemed to think so. Because you were upset. And I expect this coming from a fan.
Because I am completely open, I know I have a bias. My bias is that I believe very, very strongly Michael Jackson was a pedophile and he was gay, or gay-leaning. But that does not change the fact I am willing to look at all sides of information and come to conclusions. I will deride any and all sides if I believe them to have presented faulty logic and information.
In spite of my strongly held belief, I am willing to be objective and report facts and reasonable speculation/innuendo.
For those very reasons, I have very little tolerance and patience for someone who tries to win an argument by simply trying to pick apart mine. No, if you believe him to be the Second Coming of Christ, by all means, show me your reasoning!
I am afraid that is something you are incapable of doing. You've wrongly accused me of not looking at both sides when, in fact, the plank in your eyes has obscured you from the harsh reflection in the mirror: you have not looked at both sides, Alison. If you had, you would not come off as angry and/or agitated.
Fear and anger are the common reactions of uninformed people. You are uninformed. Simple. You don't have to be ashamed of being uninformed but that is what my blog is trying to correct: misinformation and one-sidedness in the realm of Jacko.
(cont'd)
I don't seek to insult Jacko fans but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think that most of them were 'off'. They are blinded by their adoration for Michael Jackson and cannot take the idea of him having a characteristic not to their liking.
That's all completely natural but they need to learn to set aside their emotions to see what can be so readily found in articles, books, documents, and transcripts.
I run my blog this way: I go where the evidence takes me. If I end up writing post after post showing evidence of Michael's predilection for boys, it's because that was where the evidence took me.
Remember, I used to be a fan. I loved Michael Jackson. Loved him. However, because of researching and careful analysis, I no longer love him. I know he hated being black because that is what the evidence suggests. I know he was a child molester and a pedophile because that's what the evidence points to. I know he was drug addict, again, because of the evidence. I know he was gay/gay-leaning (not that that part bothers me in the slightest; I prefer to imagine Michael with men because it makes more sense) because of the stains, the sheets, and the underwear, not to mention all of the rumors, the homoerotic materials, the anecdotes.
Now, before you try to feign outrage, I am not saying gays and pedophiles are one and the same. But if a man likes young boys, he is a gay pedophile, political correctness go to Hell. If a man liked young girls he is a straight pedophile. Most pedophiles are 'gay' and the bulk of child pornography features boys and men. It is why the major pedophile organizations around the world ride the gay rights coattails. These are facts, not opinion, and if you or anyone else would like to debate the semantics, have at it.
Anyway, I find it irritating and preposterous that you could even accuse me of only seeing one side, while you see both.
Not true. The best way to win an argument is to know your opponent. Unfortunately, I find my opponents and their websites as formidable as a straw house. They rely on Michael Jackson's phony image as their best weapon, the words he says in interviews and in the press.
Ultimately, that is not enough to convince any rationally thinking person that two boys, paid millions of dollars in hush money, were liars.
Finally, you claim to not care, yet you've repeatedly returned to argue about the meanings of the semen and whether or not he was gay. You said you didn't care if he was guilty? Why is his being gay worth more argument than his being guilty of molesting young boys? That is something you will have to figure out, Alison, someone who claims to 'care less' and has put it between 'God and MJ'.
Remember, I do not tolerate people who try to change my opinion by attempting to poke holes in my argument without strengthening their own. That's how the game is played here. If you can find good evidence (because I think my evidence is high quality) to refute any of my points, as well as use reasonable and rational logic to support it, I am happy to listen and mull it over.
If you cannot and you try to tell me I'm wrong or inconsistent in my viewpoints, not to mention your sole purpose for being on my site is to argue baselessly and with fan/PR drivel, you will be ignored and/or deleted.
This is long enough and I plan to post a recap/follow-up to this post later on today. I will try to address any more questions I can if I have left them out here.
Alison, Have you read the legal documents, victim depositions, police reports, and the transcripts? There is a ton of information on the Santa Barbara County website for public perusal. I think you would find them fascinating to read. Some of the documents I found particularly interesting were the discussions of what should and should not be allowed in the courtroom. Desiree makes it easy to click on links for some of the more revealing documents, which I truly appreciate. She really does do her homework before posting, which is why I enjoy reading her blogs so much.
Insofar as bias is concerned, I used to think Michael was just mentally ill and didn't understand why there was something very inappropriate and wrong with little-boy sleepovers. Because I had no answer, I was very neutral on the subject. However, I am the person with the connection in the music industry, and I was told Michael did molest little boys. It wasn't something I wanted to hear. But reading the legal documents removed all doubt. Desiree also sent me links to even more than I had originally read. I'm still working my way through the enormous volume of available documents, due to my own time constraints. Whether or not I want to believe Michael was innocent of molesting children, I can't deceive myself. He was a pedophile. This doesn't mean I think he should burn in Hades. But I do condemn Michael's family for sacrificing his mental health (and their own, for that matter) for money, and I do condemn Michael for not seeking the care of a good psychologist, thereby, ending the cycle of abuse. He'd probably still be alive with the original face he was given at birth, comfortably enjoying relationships with adults.
I'm glad you realize I still separate the man from his music. You won't find Michael Jackson memorabilia in my house, such as ticket stubs, posters, etc. But you will find me listening to "Off the Wall" (which is my favorite recording), "Thriller", and his work with The Jackson 5.
Please bear in mind there are also reasons why people won't name their sources. The biggest reason is the sources haven't given permission. Naming a source means that individual will be thrown into the eye of a firestorm from the media frenzy, from the rabid fans with their fangs out, from lawyers representing interested parties with dollar signs in their eyes, and from people obsessed with public image for means of profitability. There is a LOT at risk if names are revealed, and I'm being very serious, here.
In addition, I hope I can help you understand being victimized by childhood sexual abuse doesn't make me automatically assume guilt and scream for a crucifiction. It's such a horrific crime, I like to make sure it's true, first. But it does make my blood boil when pedophiles openly refuse to see why it is damaging and wrong for adults to have sex with children. As an example, I like the volume of information in Carl Toms's book "Dangerous Liaisons." But I think somebody needs to make him sit through a support-group meeting for victims of childhood sexual abuse so that he, and people like him, can see how much damage it does to the victims.
the science speaks for itself. if you don't want to believe the science, in much the same way the Catholic Church refused to believe Galileo's proof the world was heliocentric, then that's your unfortunate prerogative.
clearly, someone is claiming to have done research into both sides of the issue when obviously that isn't the case. why do you gotta be a "hater" if you have the opinion that Michael Jackson was not the best thing since sliced bread? I myself like many others on this thread was a huge fan. i spent hundreds of dollars on memorabilia and books and dvds and songs on iTunes. i used to get so enraged when people used to say things about him or his children, saying things about how he was a child molester.
i can honestly admit now, with a bit of regret, that i was disgusted over the notion that he could have been gay when Ian Halperin's book was making its rounds back in July 2009. so i had combed the internet to see if there was evidence of him being gay. fans had mentioned LMP and the pornography and all this now truly ridiculous speculation about relationships he "had" with women in his life. all of the info helped but i remember feeling that it was scant.
it wasn't until later that i abandoned the fan sites and started to open my mind to the other side's research that i began to see a much more whole picture of mike. there was little evidence of any relationships with women outside of the quickie marriages to lisa and debbie, and i too believe that he had a special bond at some point with grace rwaramba. but when i read shmuley's book i was a little astounded by his view of women. he didn't seem to like them at all.
all the rumors about his sexuality, the fact that he was never seen with any woman outside his brief marriages, the homoerotic materials found in his private quarters, the fact that Liz Taylor didn't even weakly deny Mike's alleged homosexuality in her tweeted response to Arnie Klein, and now this scientific analysis of 3 different semen stains found on his mattress and in a bed sheet and underwear found with his own dirty underwear really puts it together. i can actually see his gayness when i look at pictures and videos of him when he was in the Jackson 5 through the time of his death. it's like "How did I miss this?" LOL
and please can someone tell me with a straight face how you can have gay sex and not be considered a homosexual or bisexual? really, if you believe that, you must be an idiot. gay sex isn't one of those things you do if you aren't interested in it. i can't imagine Bill O'Reilly doing it just to be doing it!
if you do any research at all into the allegations of him being a pedo, you will see that there is a LOT of evidence that shows he wasn't this innocent man-child, but rather a man with a serious and pervasive interest in young boys. i think his attraction to boys is almost beyond argument, even if you want to believe that he never molested anyone.
i have read trial documents, FBI documents, trial transcripts, articles, blogs, "Michael Jackson Was My Lover", "Be Careful Who You Love", "Freak!", "Dangerous Liasions", my beloved "Michael Jackson: Unauthorized", "Redemption", "All That Glitters", "Michael Jackson Conspiracy", all of Maureen Orth's Vanity Fair articles, Jordie's interview with Richard Gardner, the complete transcripts of the phone conversations between Evan Chandler and Dave Schwartz, not to mention interviews of Latoya Jackson and others.(i said i spent a lot of money!)
i have looked at all sides and i have come to an eduacated conclusion that he was a pedophile.
don't say "you couldn't care less" about his guilt. how? he was 1 of the 3 biggest pop acts of the 20th century and he was able to amass millions of fans and millions of dollars because of it. but at the same time, he was molesting his special friends? it's sick and it's wrong and i've been having difficulty lately listening to his music, which admittedly isn't all that great (his message of 'heal the world' is pretty generic and unoriginal to get much praise for it, imo). maybe that will change with time, i don't know. but i'm not going to sit here and act like he was innocent.
Whoa! Len I came back to see if you responded. Okay I seem to have touched a nerve with some folks I will apologize. I'm afraid to go through and read everything written by everyone including Desiree since I last dropped in so I'll just skim through.
I see people saying how could I care less and Len please don't think I was saying I could care less about victims of child sex abuse. I want to clarify that nothing in so far even the court documents has convinced me that MJ is guilty. Sure there is reasonble suspicion regarding some allegations but there is also reasonable doubt as well. Like I said 50/50. So let me clarify and reiterate what I said before, that I feel bad for anyone MJ hurt and I said not just pedofile victims (if they're are any). Yeah, that's right if there are any, I don't know if there are, and just me having a suspicion that there might be I don't feel gives me the right to condemn the man. But if there are any then I feel awful for them and I hope they can find someone way to live a normal life regardless of the pain MJ alledgely caused them.
Look, I didn't live his life so I feel how can I judge him for how he turned out guilty or not. Honestly now that he's dead, I feel it's in god's hands.
Why is that such a problem for folks, that I want to remain neutral and non-judgmental about a fellow human being whether he be an icon or not and leave it in gods hands now that's he's passed.If he was a pedofile he can't hurt anyone now, I don't know what else to say beyond that I really don't.And desiree, sorry again, I did misunderstand what you meant about the women, it does make sense now. Sorry I didn't read all that you wrote because I feel like this is just going to turn into a vortex of negativity. I'm sure you have reasons for why you are doing this blog and that's great and I hope you are accomplishing whatever mission you hope to a accomplish. If I offended you I'm sorry, please accept my apology.
A year ago I did care more about this and it consummed my life reading everyting I could get my hands on both positive and negative and like I mentioned eventually I had to take a step back alittle. There seemed to be too many contradictions and I was having a hard time distinguising what was real and was rumor. I still do like to challenge the issue form time to time on both sides but I know when to step out of the debate. Right now I'm not debating anything I'm only explaining my stance which is neutral.
So again, Len,Desiree your readers, sorry if I offend you with my neutrality but to be honest before MJ passed I didn't even know what the names of most of his siblings were or how many children he had or their names. There was alot I didn't know, I knew the hits and I remember the performances, I knew about the mans art. Sorry if not caring that about the allegations that much even before his death bothers some of you but I can't lie, it didn't affect my perception of him as an artist.
In death though I wanted to know more about the artist whose death so many grieved for, and who's art had an impact on so many. I can't lie either and say I was a huge fan I only knew a handful of his songs, never owned record or CD or had any posters and still don't. I did however want to know what the truth was good or bad, now I just feel the absoulte answer is best to rest with MJ.
That's not the purpose of the blog, I get it, so again, I will leave you be.
With that, goodnight and god bless!
I am tempted to drop back in and see if Len and Desiree will accept my apology but I'm afraid of see lines and lines of responses again. I'm not here to fight or debate anymore, forget you ever heard of me and carry on.
Hey, what's good. I actually came to your site after stumbling upon Stuff Black People Don't Like. So you're not only Michael Jackson-obsessed, you're masochistic too?
re: Michael, I'm not worried about whether he was gay, I'm just sad that he was not given a proper burial on the moon, as befits a King of Pop.
My only post on MJ is here. Not gossipy, more philosophical, cause that's me.
I blog about polytricks too!
Alison:
You are as neutral as battery acid. Feigning neutrality when the opposite is true gets on everyone's nerves; it has absolutely nothing to do with your 'argument' because, as far as I am concerned, you don't have one.
The problem is that you don't read. (Skimming my responses to you and then playing an attacked victim will lead to nothing but scorn.)
If you'd read everything you've claimed to have read you would never say his guilt or innocence is 50/50. You gave yourself away with that one, Alison. If you actually read all sides (and merely reading Diane Dimond's book does NOT count as reading the 'other side'), you would come to the very real conclusion that his guilt/innocence is more 90/10!
And why do you think I have the bravado to give such an unbalanced ratio? Because I have done the research and am continuing in my research. If you'd read my comment, you'd know I have read a variety of materials and information, which INCLUDES vindication blogs containing information about all of the child molestation issues. If you'd read my comment, you'd know I only go where the evidence takes me.
And by evidence, I mean published books and news articles, interviews, court documents, transcripts, and anecdotes from people I can reliably confirm to have had a proximity to Michael or to one of his friends/cronies. I do not reference fan-babel, drivel, or speculation because I know that even the most reasonable of conclusions, without evidence to back it up, is nothing more than speculation.
My blog is analysis and speculation. But I always make sure to back up my reasoning with some sort of link to information, etc.
Which is the reason your viewpoints and your fictional neutrality bore me and irritate me. I have no reason at all to malign a dead man; I would be lying, though, if I said the inordinate amount of fan-spin available on the Internet--especially when all a questioning person wants to do is find some sort of answers--didn't make me go after Jacko harder than normal.
But this is no way judgment or condemnation. I am simply putting out information that is the fruit of my careful analyses and research. If you dislike that fruit, by all means eat something else.
You know, because you are a fan (again, you are not neutral), you will always and forever believe what I am presenting here is mean-spirited and/or negative. That is your prerogative.
I find you insincere and you disintegrated when put to the test. You'd be more formidable if you actually took the time to set aside biases and adoration as to be objective when looking at evidence. Please don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining; just because you are on the web does not mean you will be left unaccountable for your fibs.
Yes, please leave if you are not going to adhere to the blog debate policies, ie. have research and evidence to back up your beliefs. I will not entertain idiocy.
the author:
As for me being on Stuff Black People Don't Like, yes, you can say I was some sort of masochist. But, in truth, the viewpoints presented there are laughable. It doesn't bother me and I enjoy when they try to attack.
Desiree
Okay so you are not going to accept my apology.
I have pissed you off, I am truley am sorry about that, and now I'm I am going to skim through this reply as well. When you say my neutrality is battery acid, I don't expect the rest of the reply to be kind. You can believe what you want to about that, if you think I'm convinced he's innocent, it's not going to hurt me really cause you don't even know me. I haven't given any arguments to say he was innocent but if not knowing he's guilty means I think he's innocent okay then.
I just wasn't there when whatever was alleged, and further more I wasn't there when he was sexual with anyone else either whether they be men or women.
And now to get personal over why the gay thing stuck a nerve with me. I see that you were trying to find proof that he was with men, but for some reason it bothered me that him being with men, meant he was gay when it could just mean he was bisexual. Here's why.
It would be kind of hypocritical of me to say it would bother or offend me if he was gay or bisexual because I am bisexual myself even though I have only technically been involved with a few women and only in the sexual sense, not in a relationship. I have been with women and men, more men though because I do prefer the Penis too :) (see I read most of your reply) but still I am bisexual, because I like both, not a lesbian and yes I do get sensitive about terminology because it's describing who I am and so forth.
And in case your wondering, yes it's usually in a kinky situation, with a man and yes a strap-on sometimes involved. (How do you think I know so much about that and anal, hmmmm) I didn't intend to get this personal but I will admit that's what kept me coming back, the homosexuality issue struck a nerve with me. Perhaps that is what offended me, I thought you were saying that being gay or bisexual made him more capable of being a pedofile. Obviously I have many gay, bisexual and lesbian friends, and we do get offended by such thoughts by people.
I see CLEARY now that you were NOT saying that, what you implying but that you thought it was a way to cover it up or cure himself of pedophilia, and honestly that is a good theory, you may be right on that.
I simply don't know anything for sure, but I have my beliefs and opinions based on what I've read and so forth. I don't know if my beliefs and opinions are the absolute truth, I really don't. Sorry I won't claim to know anything as absolute no matter how much material continues to be presented to me.
I apologize again if my "I could care less stance" was offensive.
I'm not playing the victim in that really, that statement was insensitive.
I will choose my words carefully in debate with anyone else on the subject. Obviously you guys and alot of people care, so I shouldn't have said that.
I was wrong to come here and challenge your argument since that is not what your blog is for. I get it now. I will accept responsibilty for that. Like I said continue with doing what you are doing if it accomplished a mission.
In retrospect though,I have learned something. I have learned that not everyone who thinks he's guilty thinks that out of hatred. I understand now why so many people are conflicted when it comes to MJ. They want to like him, they want to enjoy his music but they just can't get past the allegations.
My sister and I were having a debate regarding Gavin Arvizo's allegation and have sadly concluded that something improper must have happened in order for the family to take his complaint all the way to court. Maybe some things were embellished for the sake of convincing the jury of Michael's guilt. However I feel that no parent regrdless of financial motive, would put a child who recently overcame a life threatening illness through the strenuous ordeal of a trial if it were all lies. Yes there are some unscrupulous parents in the world, but it would have been extremely foolish for anyone to take that risk with the glare of the world's media on them. And I am starting to believe the brothers' testimony that Michael simulated sex with the mannequin infront of them. As for him being gay, I think he definitely did not like intimacy with women and viewed homosexuality as sinful, therefore he saw boys as an acceptable substitute. Just my humble opinon.
sofi
i totally 100% agree with you on Gavin Arvizo; i was thinking the exact same thing! now admittedly i have not read either his or his brother's testimony, and have only read Davellin's testimony, because i was of the opinion that they were liars. but from what i read of Davellin, i do think there is some interesting things that i don't think she made up, like the fact that she felt excluded and not wanted when she tried hang out with Mike and the boys. that is the same thing echoed in a letter found in Mike's bedroom during the raid (this is on the master search warrant list) from a girl named Renia that discussed Mike's sleeping with boys in his bed and her not being allowed to join the "Applehead" club precisely because she was a girl!! so much for the claim that he loved ALL children equally!
about Gavin, i had first seen the cop's video of him in which he described his molestation and THE FIRST thing i thought was this kid does not look like he was lying! that was my gut reaction, and i know that this is the video in which he said he didnt know what ejaculation was. now most people, like aphrodite jones, think this is evidence of him lying because he had to know what it was seeing how big and developed he was, but i am thinking now that he might have not knew what the word 'ejaculation' meant, not the actual physical sensation. i didn't know what "beat your meat" meant until i was 13, and i didn't know what "teabagging" was until i was a junior in high school! LOL. so it's possible he wasn't well-versed in medical terminology.
i so agree about the whole trial. why would they even risk going to trial and being exposed as liars if something hadn't occurred? wouldn't it have been better to just shut up and try to haggle with Mike for a pay out? i mean they were the only victims to go to a criminal trial and not press for any civil settlement--not that that invalidates Jordie or Jason because clearly the facts point otherwise. i just find it interesting that they went through the whole thing, testifying and cooperating with police. and some of the things that Gavin said i don't think he could have made up, like Mike giving them alcohol and saying "Got Milk?" and "You're missing some good pussy" to little Prince; that just seems so authentic. plus, Gavin said that Mike made him change out of his dirty semen underwear after the molestation and he was given new clean ones to put on. Gavin told the police that he wore white Hanes underwear size small and lo and behold, they found exactly that: item #327 white cotton Hanes underwear size 30 (which is size small) in his daughter's bathroom! so Gavin was telling the truth there! why would Mike have a package of clean boys/young men's sized underwear in his daughter's bathroom? sounds like he was hiding them.
i really am thinking that something untoward happened and i agree with you that maybe some embellishments were made since he wasn't this squeeky clean kid. i think Mike and his handlers were definately up to something in trying to get rid of the Arvizo family. Why would the want to get 1 way tickets to Brazil; don't you need round trip?
sofi
i agree with you about his sexuality. i don't know if you have ever read this book "The Bluest Eye" by Toni Morrison (it's a great book) but there is a character called Soaphead Church, who is a storefront preacher. he sexually did not like women at all, and would have been an active homosexual but he couldn't bring himself to caress and be caressed by another man. so he decided he would turn to children as a substitute. he wanted boys but they were so mean and hard to get to, so he decided to molest little girls. i always think there was an interesting parallel between Soaphead's behavior and mike's. i read on Alex Constantine's website there was a comment from a guy who said he worked on a project in 93 to bash Mike, and through his investigations Mike did molest little boys but it was more because they were around and they were a substitute for young adult men when they were unavailable. i don't know if i totally buy it, but i think it's worth thinking over. not that gay men are all pedos because that's clearly, 100% not true, but most pedos--true blue pedos--are homosexual.
Alison:
I will try to keep it as short and sweet as possible (God-willing) because you obviously have an issue with (or fear of?) reading long responses directed to you...
You said:
"I was wrong to come here and challenge your argument since that is not what your blog is for. I get it now."
If you had read my responses in their entirety, you would already know my debate policy. But since you seem deficient, I will repeat it here. I will not tolerate anyone coming on here trying to change my viewpoints without having an argument backed up with evidence and strong logic. Period. If you do have have a strong argument with evidence, I will be forced to listen and evaluate. That is my nature; I do not like to be wrong. If I have a faulty opinion--and you know this based upon evidence you have found--please show me the error of my ways.
I have repeated this numerous times, Alison. Why have you yet to get it?
Time and time again you have returned to leave long-winded diatribes without a scintilla of substance and you don't even have the courtesy to read responses. Why is that, Alison?
Did you expect to be treated with kid gloves when you spew baseless, fact-free opinions? If you did, you most certainly entered the wrong forum.
I actually feel slighted in that you have refused to read comments and, like an unwelcome Christmas present of coal, you leave, as a replacement, more and more flimsy screeds.
I don't give a flying fig about your bouts of bisexuality, nor of your dabbling in shit-free anal sex. I couldn't care any less than I do right now. What does that have to do with Michael Jackson, especially when you stated to Sly that Michael having semen on his bed, sheets, and in underwear from other men did not mean he was a bisexual?
Or have you changed that faulty conclusion since then?
What else does it mean, Alison? What else could it possibly mean? Your original belief was that Michael Jackson was not gay, based on your belief in Lisa Marie Presley. I countered, saying she truly was a non-factor.
After that, you labeled my logic flawed and inconsistent. Yet, in the typical fashion you would continue to set forth, you gave absolutely no reasoning as to why my logic was flawed and/or inconsistent.
If you happen to develop evidence-based, sound reasoning, feel free to elaborate.
However, the possibility of that seems dubious. This is simply because you don't read anything; or, if you read, you don't read closely; or, you are too biased to be objective. All of that ultimately leads to a person being uninformed and/or without an argument.
So is the way of you.
I will not allow this thread to devolve into 'The Alison Show'. I simply have no patience for any of that.
(cont'd):
You know, you didn't agree with the assertion of Michael Jackson being gay. The same way you disagree with the label of homosexual being put on you for your alleged bisexuality. But your personal feelings mean nothing with regard to Michael. I just don't care. Perhaps you are more than a bit homophobic (and many people who claim to be okay with homosexuality on others don't want it attributed to certain people or themselves). That is not a diss; everyone has their personal opinions. But that should not cloud the evidence in this case:
semen from other men + homoerotic books + lifetime of gay rumors + a general lack of women = a nearly open-and-shut case for his homosexuality.
I am done with this argument, Alison, because I don't like repeating myself.
And please, stop with the thinly-veiled omens that I should 'keep doing what I am doing if I must, if there is some sort of mission to be accomplished'. Again, I have made the point and purpose of this blog very clear; all you have to do is read.
Finally, your continued facade of neutrality is boring. We both know you are not being truthful. Let that make you feel in however way it makes you feel. I couldn't care less...
No need for apologies outside of wasting my time. In that case, you are forgiven. Come with substance next time you comment, although I will not hold my breath.
By the way, Alison:
For the sake of those who happen to stumble onto this thread during their lunch hours, please keep your strap-on expeditions to yourself.
You already know I don't give a shit (pardon the pun).
Do so for your own sake as well. Coupled with your screeds, it makes you sound disturbed.
Thanks in advance.
I'm glad we got the strap on thing out of the way, that was just too much information! Perhaps Alison is better contributing to a fan forum website where they wax lyrical about Michael in his gold pants and his very obvious "hotness"! Not a sensible blog like this one with like minded people seeking the truth and contributing to a very interesting debate.
Well, I'm glad you seem to have accepted my apology. So because of that,I did take the time to read your responses since you insist it was not an attack. I see you were merely trying to explain what your doing with this blog and the rules. I went into defense mode when I saw how many responses were left and the negative tone I thought was picking up on from your readers. My mistake.
Okay something with substace, may I ask why you think that the employees during the 2005 trial were telling the truth. All of them had sold stories to tabloids in regards to the 93 case, many of them sold stories before going to the police in fact the police found out about the stories and then questioned them. It's not proof of MJ innocense but there is a program that shows how tabloids and their lax policies on truth and accuracy in reporting have muddied the waters in discovering the truth. Just to show you 1 of many reason why it's hard not to stay neutral even with salacious headlines. I know, I know the link is from a fan site but it was a frontline show, I wish it were on youtube but it's the best I could do I thought it had interesting points. Again not saying it proves his innocense by any means but it offers a different perspective by showing known tactics of tabloids. Like I said, not sure what to believe hence my neutral stance.
http://mjtruthnow.com/
It should be right on the homepage still, Frontline by Ben Cramer, his voice is boring as hell.
A few reference point in the video the first is part is the allegations of Jordan and the whole was it exortion stuff that we've all read and analyzed with a fine tooth comb most likely.
However, pay attention to these ref points about the former employees starting at 26:30,the Quindoy who were featured in the FBI files if you remember. Also 32:22 about the Lemarques, who testified and were discredited because of these tabloid stories. And how the details of these alledged events changed with more money on the table at 39:00.
Like I said doesn't prove MJ is innocent not by a long shot, these employee might have been telling truth but when you read how the stories changed with more money on the table and in the court transcripts there is so many holes in their stories it's hard not to wonder if there would be any stories at all with no money involved.
I'm not so blind to think that money involved means it's not true, although it does give another motivation other than for the truth or justice in order for the employee's to talk in 1993.
So that is one of many reason, too many to count for why I have doubts about his guilt. I also have just as many doubts about his innocense though so I don't know.
You said you wanted a link so I gave you one, I would need to go back into my files saved and find other links but I won't waste your time and put them on this post, maybe for others in the future. Alright that's all for now!
LMAO, that was good one actually about the strap-on during the lunch hour but come on. I mean after reading your whole piece about proving MJ was gay, with the shit and blood stained and semen soaked sheets after all that gay sex. After all that during the lunch hour I think they can handle hearing about strap-on's but just in case I'll keep it out of futue commentary none the less, lol.
No, the difference is we don't wanna hear that you use a fucking strap-on. Duh...Keep that sick ass shit to yourself because I sure as hell don't want to hear that.
You aren't saying anything of relevance with that revelation and your activities don't have any bearing on what Mike could have possibly done in his own life. What are you still in that egocentric stage in which you believe the world does what you do and revolves around your actions and thoughts?
Don't use yourself as a gauge in which to say some sick ass shit about Mike gay.
Alison, I merely asked for you to keep your sexual excursions to yourself. Even if you had entertained us with tales of vanilla sex, my exhortation would have been the same.
Honestly, no one cares. It really is too much information.
I am simply requesting you to refrain from such talk about your personal life because, again, I don't care, neither do my readers, nor do we want to have a mental picture. My discussion of sheets, underwear, etc. is in a purely analytical manner. We are not even on the same level so don't even go there.
What no one wants to hear about is what you do. We offered no provocation for that information, Alison. If you plan to supply diatribes and baseless opinions, you can at least spare us the details of your most intimate moments...
I don't know if I can make myself clearer than that.
As for tabloids (and I saw that Frontline video months and months ago after having checked it out at my university library), I think it is faulty to assume everyone who sells stories to the tabloids is a liar.
Quindoys and Lemarques had stories before the Jordie Chandler scandal, which makes me feel they are very truthful. If the sole reasoning behind declaring Neverland employees 'liars' is based upon their selling of stories to tabloids that is a very weak foundation. Very, very weak.
My favorite tabloid is The National Enquirer, as it is the only paper in the US readily available for reading (the NY Post is somewhat regional) that is unafraid to report celebrity dirt and scandal. Since I do read the Enquirer, I know full well their accuracy. For example, they reported on John Edwards' love child before the world knew he was a cheater; they knew the truth behind Elin Nordegren chasing Tiger Woods around with a golf club; they also reported that while on the set of 'Burlesque', Christina Aguilera was confiding in Cher about her marriage troubles... as we all know now, she is divorced.
The same goes for In Touch Weekly, I believe, who stated Kim Kardashian had work done on her face. She finally admitted she'd had Botox on her nasal-labial folds but has yet to admit to fillers in her cheeks. I won't hold my breath...
I love tabloids and I read the NE whenever I go to the supermarket. Michael Jackson, it should be noted, never sued any tabloid in the US or Britain. In the US, it is harder, but in the UK, it is easy as pie. I think that is something to think about, especially when he continually and over and over again made it known how much he hated the British press.
Why not sue, Jacko? Because he had something to hide. He didn't want his fans to read all of the salacious details about his life. I understand why: the boys, the sheets, the booze, the drugs.
It should be understood that tabloids are sometimes the only sources for celebrity news. To so wantonly dismiss them, just because Jacko disliked tabloids, is really, really stupid.
I could literally beat her ass if we met in public public for giving me a sick ass mental picture of a nasty ass girl doing some sick shit with a rubber phallus. I am so fucking pissed off and disgusted. I never like hearing people's activities; keep that behind closed doors.
I guess I will be the negative ghetto one on this thread, but I could cut a bitch for real.I feel very disrespected.
(If you don't want to post this, that's fine, Desiree. I'm usually nice and sweet.)
@J-M-H
The only reason I thought to mention it honestly is because of the JRT reference I made above about Lisa Marie's friend saying she gravitated towards unconvential sex and about how it was revealed to a maid at the 2005 trial had been selling stories to tabloids about MJ and Lisa Marie's kinky sex life. That's why it poppoed into my head and I offered to Desiree as a possibility for the blood and shit stained sheets. Though I'm not sure it was claried when shit stained sheets were discovered and if it was during his time with Lisa Marie.
I wouldn't have thought of it otherwise I never assumed MJ was into kinky sex just because I was, lol. I just happen to know something about it that's all.
Wow, these comments keep coming...
J-M-H, I understand. I think she went into a little too much detail about all of that. But that is typical of people lacking an argument. They resort to silly little non-substantive poo-poo references.
Her experience has nothing to do with Michael Jackson and, as I've stated before, I doubt his practices were anywhere near what she attempted to describe.
No need for violence, J, although I understand the 'emotion'. That is a pet peeve of mine, too; the error most people (celebrities included) make is in thinking others give a shit about them.
That is not the case; you usually have to know the person first.
Okay Desiree
Fair enough I will refrain from telling storied about my personal life. I merely wanted to explain why originnally I may have seem offended by the whole "proof that MJ is gay" thing. I have pointed out that I know now you are NOT saying having gay sex or living a homosexual or bisexual lifestyle had anything to do with him being a pedofile so I was offended for no reason.
Do you have a link about when the Quindoy's and the LeMarquee first tried to sell molestation stories to the tabloids. Everything I have read is that they didn't try to sell molestation stories until after the 1993 allegations. Thanks much appreciated!
Alison:
I don't think you 'get it' so I will be as clear as possible.
Any reference at all, without provocation or request, to your personal life is not allowed. That includes even mentioning what you are into, ie. "I never assumed MJ was into kinky sex just because I was, lol."
FAIL. I don't give a shit and keep it to yourself.
Really, this is not a tough concept. At all. Easy as pie.
I am trying to be as clinical as possible with these entries. I don't want to hear, even the smallest peep, about your proclivities.
God forbid one of your screeds contains information on bestiality; then, we will have a huge problem.
Regarding the Quindoys and Lemarques, the link is:
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1994/01/orth199401?currentPage=all
but I have the excerpts about them from the above article in the footnote of this post (this would be easier):
http://desireespeakssolisten.blogspot.com/2010/10/re-michaels-sexuality-was-michael.html
@Desiree, I'm sorry, I just trying to explain to J-M-H why I thought of it at all.
It won't bother me if you go back and erase those comments, my purpose was not to offend anyone.
Okay thanks for the links!
BTW, I think the maid's name who sold those stories was Adrian McManus, I know it came up in the trial transcripts.
If you or anyone has any website to complete transcripts feel free to send them my way. The only website I can find at the moment in my search is that DearGavinAriviso one and few others, but last year I found a more complete one with transcripts from every day start to finish. Thanks!
Thanks JMH, I will track down that book, it sounds interesting. Regarding the Arvizos; I agree with you about the comment Michael alleged to have made to little Prince. The boys simply could not have made that up, even with the most fertile imagination. I only wished that I had followed the case more closely at the time.
In light of the allegations, Michael's evasiveness helped add fuel to the fire. I did often wonder why a man like him who was so obsessed with his public image, never sued all these authors who clearly branded him a child molester. He did however sue the Daily Mirror in 1992 for alleging he had a disfigured face. You would have thought that being reviled as a pedophile would be more damaging to his image than the state of his face.
I followed the MJ trial a little in 2005, but I live in Australia and the news was a little patchy. I researched more since 25/6/09, and have to say was horrified by some of the findings, up until them I had always just assumed that he was innocent and that it was all just made up because he was an easy target. Wrong Wrong Wrong! Since that time I sought out people that knew the Arvizo's, one was a witness at the trial and asked some questions. The case I believe was lost because of the nutty mother, who basically gave the defense exactly what they wanted and made MJ look sane incomparison. The source I spoke to via email, told me that the Arvizos have never recanted or changed their story, life has been difficult for them but they moved on and changed their names albeit to Jackson, which is a bit weird but the mother did marry Jay Jackson! They never sold their story or gave interviews to anyone, and let's face it that story would have been worth millions, even after June 25th, it would have doubled in value! I think that in itself speaks volumes about the so called integrity of Gavin Arvizo who is now 20 years old, in a relationship and studying to be a lawyer! I think it is fair to say that MJ had a very lucky escape in 2005!
With regard to the 2005 trial, I think it is worth noting Tom Mesereau is BFFs with Randy Jackson. I think this allegiance to a Jackson family member needs to be remembered.
I think it goes a long way to explain Mesereau's posthumous defense of Michael.
There is no way Mesereau could just have seen some of the stuff I'd read in court documents and still think Michael Jackson was innocent. No way in hell.
Did he really find Joy Robson's testimony solid? There was never a doubt in his mind about her conduct and Michael's conduct with Wade given her inconsistencies with previous testimony?
I just don't trust the man's sincerity, unless his obsession with black people makes him think all black defendants he goes to represent are innocent?
He did manage to get Mike Tyson off on rape charges; the whole case was dismissed.
Sneddon messed up with his case. I don't think Janet was really involved in the goings-on regarding what her boys were up to. In that case, I think it's unfair that the onus of believability was placed on Janet when it was a MOLESTATION trial!
I think Jacko got off easy because there were Jackson fans on the jury. Jesse Jackson said Michael was petrified and asked for him to pray with him on the day the verdict came in.
Given Michael's history, no wonder he was scared shitless. I think something untoward did happen with Gavin; no way some of that stuff could be made up. Perhaps they over-egged the pudding... But when you are a celebrity (maybe unless you are a rap star) you can get away with anything. And he got off twice...
There are so many similarities between what Jordan said and what Gavin said. MJ wanted to show them how to masturbate and do it for them, that it was wonderful and natural etc etc. This is carroborated by Terry George who told his story of how MJ asked him if he masturbated and did it with Terry on the phone, he also asked if Terry used "cream" this I think could be the famous vaseline that was all over he place at the ranch. Another interesting fact, in VG book he mentions some of the strange foreign boy loving films that MJ liked. In Gavin's testimony he said that MJ's fav film was called the Devils Backbone. Guess what they have a copy in my local video store and it is a Spanish movie made in 2000/2001 (so the timeline fits)its about a young spanish boy around 13 in an orphange, a bit creepy. Will rent it but not looking forward to that one. How could the Mez on one hand have the DNA evidence from the bed and then try to sell the jury on MJ being a ladies man with the girlie mags. In his opening he says that MJ likes to look at them from time to time, and also tries to insinuate to Adrian McManus that MJ was doing June Chandler! Yeah right, I think MJ was doing her son more like it. He must have know that MJ was gay leaning, look at his reading material. I've seen some of the homo erotic stuff on the net and it ain't pretty some of it is really hardcore.
Sarah, thank you for the update about the Arvizo family. Considering what happened to the Chandlers, I wondered what happened to the Arvizos. Initially, I was skeptical about their case, but after I learned what I did, last year, and read some of the documents, my skepticism began to diminish.
Desiree, with Tom Mesereau that tight with the Jackson family, I'm appalled he wasn't removed from the case, on grounds of "conflict of interest." Then again, Chief Justice Scalia refused to recuse himself and step down from the bench, in regards to a case involving his friend's company that was examined by The Supremecist Court. Naturally, the case was ruled in favor of his friend.
Len:
Brian Oxman had a conflict of interest, too, as a Jackson family attorney. But he was let go. In Maureen Orth's article "CSI: Neverland", she reported that Oxman tried to pay Jordie not to testify.
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2005/07/orth200507?currentPage=all
That was a disturbing article. So, as the article put it, Oxman tried to obstruct justice. With the bad taste in my mouth I have been left with about everyone on Legal Team Michael, I am reminded of something my mother used to say. "You are the company you keep." The more of the publicly available documents I read, the more appalled I am. As disgusting as Mesereau is, I have to hand it to him for doing the job he was paid to do. But considering his close ties to the Jacksons, he should have been removed from the case. What occurred was not a trial, it was as circus.
In the witness-protection law, there is a special allowance for victims of child sexual abuse to testify in a room separate from the courtroom. That the child was grilled like a common criminal helps explain why the criminologist I encountered, who has dealt with these cases, said usually only the written deposition is brought to trial so that the child doesn't have to undergo further stress.
Once again, if you are rich and famous, you can buy the verdict.
I read somewhere here that the fans always took as truth everything what Mesereau sais...well it´s not the truth. He gave an interview in which he said that Michael was father of two WHITE child and a latino child. As said, they haven´t black blood...of course here the fans thought he just had a poor choose of words. Prince has that spots so...
I was searching for what people keeps saying to Klein no twitter about that case...actually there is an easy method. A woman, a psichist wrote that for him:
@awkmd Well done for shedding light on MJ - the more we know the more we can understand.
Klein has a friend who seems to be very found on Michael, he answered to someone something like "Michael tried". I don´t know what that person asked him.
And wow look what that man said to Klein. First he said it was trash but he talked about confidetaly too. (Twitts are read since above)
@awkmd I hope this fiasco sends patients running away from you. You violated the doctor patient relationship.... CONFIDENTIALITY.
6:32 PM May 3rd via web
@awkmd Finally, WHY go to the media? Isn't it better to focus on
MJ's music & philanthropy than his sexual life? IT IS NOT OUR BUSINESS!
6:31 PM May 3rd via web
@awkmd A true friend/lover would never hurt his lover this way!!
Jason is harming MJ's family, he was in it for $$$ and attention. VILE!
6:29 PM May 3rd via web
@awkmd If MJ was gay & chose not to reveal it, you should have
respected his privacy. Jason is no friend or lover
6:28 PM May 3rd via web
@awkmd You have hurt his kids (your kids?). WHY? It's so wrong!
How did MJ harm you that you discuss his sexuality, which was private.
6:27 PM May 3rd via web
@awkmd You betrayed your "friend". Michael would NOT have
approved of OUTING him, true or not! I'm ASHAMED you are a fellow Jew.
6:23 PM May 3rd via web in reply to awkmd
@mariolopezextra MJackson was private & would NOT approve of
this "confession". Prove that Pfeiffer didn't get paid to lie. Extra=trash!
11:56 PM Apr 30th via web
@MarioLopezExtra Show us PROOF that Jason Pfeiffer's story is
true. Otherwise it is just more garbage & hurts Michael's children/family.
11:54 PM Apr 30th via web in reply to MarioLopezExtra
@MarioLopezExtra The Jason Pfeiffer story was TRASH,
unsubstantiated, and hurts Michael's children. Feel guilty about that!
11:45 PM Apr 30th via web in reply to MarioLopezExtra
@awkmd Dame Elizabeth & Diana Ross have been 100% mum.
That is true friendship.
5:48 AM Apr 30th via web
Reply
Retweet
@awkmd A true friend respects his friend's wishes, and privacy.
5:47 AM Apr 30th via web
@awkmd You were no friend to MIchael Jackson. He would NEVER
have approved of Jason Pfeiffer's media "confession", and YOU endorsed it
5:45 AM Apr 30th via web in reply to awkmd
Now more intrigant,that man follows Corey Summers, who saw Halperin´s documentary know Corey, he talked there. That man who was angry to Klein should be gay because he was on gay network on twitter.
I thought before that gay men know better if another men was gay or not. But I read some gay foruns about Michael Jackson and some of them didn´t know, some more said that he should´ve been at least bi. I don´t recall some gay men saying he was straight.
Boy George himself wrote on his twitter months ago that there are various types of gay men. I´m curious about what he should think of that case. I noticed he follows Dame Elizabet too.
The man said that unless Jason showed some proof the story was BS...seriously Shana Mangatal, Joanna Thomae didn´t show proof as well but some fans beieve them! Talk about hypocrisy!
btw the man got furious about the pee story too.
Remember when Camuso claimed that a journalist friend of Klein sold the story to tabloids? He said her name´s Alicia, it should be that one I saw a friend of Klein´s talking with her.
http://twitter.com/AliciaJacobs
It´s really her:
@KatherinaLove19 ur anger is really misplaced. It's not my story, I am the conduit, the news can't & won't always please everyone. Best 2u
5:09 PM Apr 30th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to KatherinaLove19
Reply
Retweet
@KatherinaLove19 I take my job very seriously, I wld NEVER &
have never reported anything false. I had many sources & stand by the story
5:08 PM Apr 30th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to KatherinaLove19
@KatherinaLove19 Kathy, u write as tho u must have known MJ
very very well. I appreciate u r a huge fan, but u shld know, I did my research
5:06 PM Apr 30th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to KatherinaLove19
@KatherinaLove19 yes,I felt safeness 4 MJ's family when he
passed away...I felt happiness when I learned MJ had found love w/ Jason. Best 2u
Since when does one need 2 "defend" being gay? Being gay is not a problem or a negative. There's nothing more beautiful than2 people in love
10:07 AM Apr 30th via web
Reply
Retweet
In interviewing Jason Pfeiffer, it was apparent that MJ & he truly cared for eachother. MJ would not want Jason 2b mistreated by his fans.
9:57 AM Apr 30th via web
Shouldn't we all be happy that FINALLY, at the end of his life, MJ found love? Perhaps the reason he kept it quiet, is he feared scrutiny?
9:53 AM Apr 30th via web
Reply
Retweet
Maybe I'm naive, but, what exactly is negative, hurtful, or unkind
about revealing that MJ was gay? Since when is homosexuality a bad thing?
9:49 AM Apr 30th via web
@ProudtoloveMJJ his name is Jason. He is the CEO of dr. Arnie
Kleins med. Corp. I assure u, many people researched this story & it's true
3:39 PM Apr 29th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to ProudtoloveMJJ
@ProudtoloveMJJ sure, ask anything
3:30 PM Apr 29th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to ProudtoloveMJJ
@ProudtoloveMJJ with all due respect, why r u making this a negative story? Be happy that MJ found someone special. It's s lovestory.
oh boy! The controversy wheels r already in major motion! My MICHAEL JACKSON story hasn't even aired yet, & already there's fireworks!
9:55 AM Apr 29th via txt
Suzy
You have to admit it the pee story was gross! I have read comments from karen Faye from a few years ago that say that MJ did not have any type of relationship with Shana Mantagal other than the fact that she was Sandy Gallin's PA. Also she said that Joanna Thomae was a nutty fan who followed MJ around the world, he invited her to Neverland and she got it on with Frank Tyson. Mj found out about it and she was banned from Neverland forever! This is borne out in Jesus Salas testimony both in court and the grand jury, where he said that MJ fell out with Frank because Frank used his relationship with Mj to get girls in particular Mj's fans, it mentioned that Frank bought some girls to the ranch etc etc. I guess they must have been relating to Joanna! She was very beautiful with a lovely french accent, if you were a red blooded single male wouldn't you want to? Speaks volumes for MJ's lack of interest in females if you ask me! He could have had 10 women a night if he had wanted but he chose to shut himself away in hotel rooms or at Neverland with young boys for most of his adult life. His porn collection certainly points to a man that was interested in sex, but portrayed himself to be an innocent Peter Pan type! How he managed to fool us all.
Oxman always struck me as shady. In all his interviews, he tends to use diversion tactics to avoid answering certain questions. Why wasn't he charged with attempting to obstruct justice? I thought that in itself was considered a crime. The fact that he was willing to go as far as offering Jordie a blank cheque not to testify, shows that Jackson team had something to hide. I can't help but think that had Jordie testified, the verdict might have been different. Michael would have been languishing in prison today. Jordie saved his ass twice!
sofi:
"Jordie saved his ass twice!"
Most definitely. It makes you wonder why, though. Was Jordie head over heels in love with Michael Jackson and was ripped from his 'lover' by his dad?
Or is that what seems so reasonable because Carl Toms is so convincing?
I just have a hard time thinking an abuse victim like Jordie would want...Michael! It really is a terrible thought.
But Brett Barnes was besotted with Michael. Besotted!
If Jordie would have testified, Michael would've been in prison, no doubt. Michael's fans think he was lying but that is just not accurate if they would bother to read everything they can about that case with a open mind, not to mention use a bit of common sense.
It really is insane to me that they cannot at least see that his attraction to boys is unequivocal. They don't have to believe anything else but they should believe that.
(well, they should believe the other things but I won't hold my breath!)
When will the truth emerge so everyone can see that one of the biggest musicians of the 20th century was a pedophile? I guess here on this blog, I am making an attempt in that direction but the fans will always believe what they want...
Sarah:
You would think Michael would go after someone like Joanna Thomae (although I personally don't think she's that pretty but that's JMHO)...
That's why the whole "womanizer/how many women has Michael been with?" type questions are so stupid. When was he ever seen with a woman outside of Brooke Shields, Lisa Marie, or Grace Rwaramba? He was never with anyone.
I don't know about all of the straight porn but I think he was really trying to orient himself in that way. But, according to Ken Lanning--the veteran FBI and pedophile expert--pedophiles tend to have HUGE collections of pornography. And it's usually porn that's incongruous with the pedophilia.
So, Michael's porn collection could be just what Lanning described. He did have those nudie boy books and the homoerotic materials. No way a 'normal' man would have those.
I'm still beholden to the notion that he had all (or most of) the porn for the boys/teen boys. I found something interesting in a court doc about his porn. But I will post on that in the near future... (sooner than later, though).
Oh, and Karen Faye... I don't follow Jacko cronies like many fans do but she definitely is a cheerleader of Michael's in the worst way. That link you sent me about her and Lisa Marie (the email she'd written) was telling on both ends.
Faye certainly is a piece of work. I think she was very, very possessive of Michael Jackson. She says he wasn't gay but then she wants to say all of these 'girlfriends' are fake?
I think she's a cover-up artist.
Sarah of course the pee story was gross. But strangely fans got more angry with Klein´s claim about Michael being gay than that pee story. For me the pee story was far worst. After his statement that Michael was needle-phobic and he couldn´t have inject himself fans seem to "forgive" him a little, because he at least was defending Michael.
They began to dislike him since he didn´t deny properly that Prince was his son. Then he confirmed that Michael had vitiligo and lupus and they liked it. So he said he didn´t do anything with boys but he peed in front on them...fans went furious.
Really even some fans began to say things like "Michael never had so much girlfriends like now..."
It´s so annoying,there are many rumors about girlfriends but all are strange. Dieter talked about one girlfriend who could testify in Michael´s favor on court but "just if she was paid"...I mean, a true girlfriend would defend the man she loved without think of money right?!
I read something hilarious on twitter, I put on search Michael Jackson gay and I found it:
"Michael jackson couldn't have been gay have u heard this guys songs from his thriller album"
I believe he was alluding to "The girl is mine" or the "Lady on my life". So? Ricky Martin and George Michael also dedicated their songs to women. Even these days people are so naive!
And that speak volumes:
#Rememberwhen we all called Michael Jackson Gay, Now when he dies we act like we never said that
I noticed before his death that discussions about his sexuality are very calm. Fans just said that believed he wasn´t gay and that´s all. Now they scream "HE WASN´T GAY!" "He said many and many times he wasn´t gay, isn´t that enough?"
About Klein case:
"Lisa is rich and famous so I believe her over Klein. She doesn´t need money or calling attention".
Hello?! Klein was already a famous dermatologist long before he knew Michael! He doesn´t need Michael to appear on media!
Desiree
You are spot on regarding Brett. Besotted is the only explanation for his admission to sleeping with MJ until he was 19. A bit too old even by Michael's standards. With regards to Jordie the answer might be a bit more nuanced. In relation to everything I have read including Gutierrez's book, it seemed that Michael filled an emotional void in Jordie's life at that time. Michael of course, took things to another level. Maybe Jordie initially resented his dad for forcing him to betray Michael which is why he refused to cooperate with the investigation post settlement. According to an article referenced by Carl Toms, Jordie still wanted to see Michael again, to talk things through. Perhaps he had ambiguous feelings towards Michael; hating him for what he did, but also harbouring feelings of guilt that he let him down. I would really have to understand Jordie's mindset to know why he was so determined not to testify in 2005.
I guess it is hard for some fans to know what to believe especially when writers such as Charles Thomson and Deborah Ffrench present such a compelling case for Michael.
sofi:
Actually, the FBI document so many fans point to as being evidence Jordie didn't want to testify in the 2005 case was really over something else.
In that document, a special FBI division, the IINI (Innocent Images National Initiative), questioned someone in New York (presumably Jordie Chandler, since he was on the East Coast of the US at the time) regarding if he was interested in cooperating in a federal case prosecuting Michael over transporting a minor across/outside of state lines for sexual purposes (which Michael did when he molested Jordie in Las Vegas, Florida, Paris, and Monaco).
It was with regard to that issue that Jordie refused to testify and would take legal action to prevent the intrusion. It had nothing to do with the Arvizo trial and him being a witness for the State.
But I don't think Jordie wanted to testify, though. I think he'd moved on and wanted to live his life. For reasons still unknown.
I think Michael took advantage of these boys' lack of fathers. That's the tragedy of the whole thing, I feel. When I believed Michael was innocent, I thought that was such a ludicrous suggestion. But not so anymore.
sofi, I cannot imagine Deborah Ffrench and Charles Thomson are convincing. Are they not just repeating the same ol' regurgitated 'Michael was a victim of a grand conspiracy' BS?
I admit, I haven't read anything by them because, honestly, reading the fan drivel at this point upsets me in the face of everything I have personally read and discovered. I know--not think, KNOW--Michael Jackson was a molester of boys.
Any opinion counter to that--and I have no problem admitting my bias--goes in one ear and out the other. Suddenly, none of it makes any sense unless you are a fan/defender.
But if you know of any pieces in particular that go under the 'compelling' category, please link them. Doubtless to say, I don't think I'll be impressed!
Which is the key to this whole thing: don't look at his pedophilia issues through a filter. Michael Jackson has millions of free defense attorneys! These people think like lawyers (to the best of their abilities) when most of the issues should be away from law theory. Innocence is not equivalent to being found Not Guilty. Why don't they understand this?
The funny thing of it all is that Michael Jackson didn't even like his fans. When are they going to find out?
Desiree thanks for enlightening me about the IINI because I (and others I'm sure) was under the impression that his refusal was in regard to the Arvizo case.
As for Thomson and French, what I meant to say was that their articles seemed compelling at the time when I was convinced of Michael's innocence. They did seem quite persuasive especially in regards to the accusers motives. In retrospect it is clear that arguments seem to based on media conspiracy or rehashing Mary Fischer's piece with no factual evidence to support their claims. I am just glad that I continued to read broadly with an open mind.
On a slightly different note Desiree, do you think Oprah knows something, which is why she has'nt been as vocal about his supposed innocence. She has been receiving alot of flack from the fans. Shari thinks she is playing her cards close to her chest with the intention of exposing all in future. I await with baited breath.
sofi, one of the readers of this blog has source in the music industry connected to a big-time musician. And the connection is substantial, reliable.
This reader says their source says Michael was a pedophile, no question.
I think that is the way it is in Tinseltown: people who may not even know Michael Jackson know someone who knows someone with the insider's scoop.
Oprah is the richest black woman in America. I think she's worth at least $2 billion. She has connections all over the place. I believe she knows someone who knows for sure that Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Or, even, she could put together a secret investigation team to research if she wanted to dig deeper. God knows she has the clout and the funds for it.
Whatever the mechanism, she knows for sure, like I do, Michael molested boys. And we all know she's a molestation victim and was raped when she was a very young girl, not to mention she's a feminist and many feminists (the feminism I subscribe to, at least, radical feminism) hate men who predate upon women and children.
There's a no tolerance about that, coupled with her abuse history....
I respect Oprah a lot in that regard, for not bowing to the pressures of worshipping a dead pedophile icon. I know she got flack for not doing a memorial episode for the biggest black superstar after his death. But, in truth, it's her show. She was an abuse victim; she doesn't want to celebrate someone she feels/knows was a pedophile.
But whether Oprah knows anything--and I think she does, like Dinae Dimond does--and will reveal all? I have no idea. For some reason, I think Michael Jackson is too much of a sacred cow at this point.
What Oprah should do is fund a writer's investigations into the issue (say, someone like me--a girl can dream!) and then have the book on her show.
It would sell like hotcakes (pardon the cheesy idiom) and he would be exposed.
THAT would be something to see. The Jacksons want to protect Michael's image because if people knew for sure he was a pedophile, they would lose money. Sure, the children would have the money from the 25% share of the Beatles catalogue (the Beatles are on iTunes now; I bet Sony, Yoko/Sean, and the Jacksons are happy as clams!) but no more money going into the Michael Jackson enterprise.
I wonder if she had to give an interview with Katherine and the Jacko 3 just so she could have that date with Jackie Jackson? Or vice versa?
Whatever... I hope she does something to expose him because she knows Michael Jackson was a pedophile.
About Oprah, I remember reading on her website after she had re-aired that 1993 interview she did with Mike, a LOT of fans were giving her shit, saying she just did that for ratings and why did she wait so long after Mike's death to acknowledge his passing and "greatness" as a musician, saying that they can tell she hates him by the way she talked giving her commentary about the interview while it played.
I think that it is obvious that she dislikes Mike, esp. for instance how she grilled Lisa Marie and her mother to speak about the negative aspects of his personality. Also, she ran before the trial verdict an episode about pedophilia, and then before the Katherine and kids interview, she did an episode about men who were victims of sexual abuse. I mean at least in my mind, that sounds like someone that knows something about his behavior with young boys! I think she was doing that all surreptiously and almost subliminally. She's almost saying "Look, I'm trying to tell you without getting sued that Michael Jackson is a pedophile!"
Also, her best friend Gayle King was like on her radio show that she had none of his songs on her iPod and didn't really follow him. She acted as if he wasn't really the cat's meow LOL. Maybe both Gayle and Oprah know something. Only time will tell.
It is possible that Oprah did have her people secretly look into the allegations at the height of the 1993 accusations and did not like what she found. The only two celebs who had the guts to speak out recently were Gene Simmons and Mick Hucknall of Simply Red(who was a patient of Evan's). Both were shot down in flames by irate fans.
Good idea about the writers investigation, you would be an excellent choice.
Ironic Deborah Ffrench and Charles Thomson should be mentioned. Are they the same person? It was Deborah Ffrench's strange "article" about Michael Jackson being an innocent victim of the media that got me speaking out more, after some of the redacted FBI files had been released. If this person(s) had been around to witness Michael's rise and fall from grace, he/she would have known he was the darling of the media until his incessant facial carving and strange behavior could no longer be ignored. I don't know what documents Deborah Ffrench/Charles Thomson read, but if ALL the legal documents had, indeed, been read, I question if said person(s) would take the stance that Michael was innocent of molesting children. The documents couldn't be any plainer than they are about his guilt.
It's funny because I went on to Charles Thomson's website and he said something that is so telling about the Thought Patrol going on in MJ fan communities.
He said that since Michael was found not guilty in his 2005 trial, NO ONE has the right to insinuate he was anything less than innocent of child molestation.
What a riot!
I agree, Len. There is no way fans could have read the documents and still believe Michael Jackson was innocent.
I think that's it in a nutshell: they simply have not read a thing.
Desiree, Charles Thomson believed Michael was a molester and gay before he was a journalist, I think I said it before here(Charles is openly gay). Fans discovered old posts from him in a forum and get angry. Some don´t pay attention because it was past and what all counts it´s what he thinks now.
Really I´m annoyed at fans hypocrisy in that subject...it´s like they searching excuses for him not being gay. Every day I find crazy things!
1-"Lisa Marie said many times she and Michael had sex and I don´t see why she had to lie".
WTF! I mean some gay men are able to have sex with women. She could have said the truth. But here is the logic that´s wrong! If the marriage was a sham and they hadn´t sex I don´t believe she would admit that! She would put not just Michael but also her in bad light. So of course she would have a good reason to lie!
2-I don´t know if you know about the Michael´s photo shoot by Arno Bani. That man is gay and it seems that he began to touch Michael in an unproper manner. He felt uncomfortable with Bani because of that. The fans believe it´s other proof that he wasn´t gay.
wow so I made a great discovery! If one day I feel uncomfortable because a man begin to touch me without my consent so I`m a lesbian! xD
3-"You can say that Jason is lying because of his body language. Besides first he claimed he knew Michael through telephone now he says that Michael was crying and talking about his childood and he comforted him "
a) Body Language
Funny because when Shana come out they couldn´t say if she was lying or not. They were able to talk about body language on Jason but not on her...she´s a female so they gave her the benefit of doubt.
And we have Lisa too. Her body language on Oprah´s show last month show she lied in some things. Her eyes wandered too much and she even hesitated when asked how Michael asked her in marriage. How could someone forget that?!
But of course the rabid fans thought she was sooo honest and believed her without question!(Though some believe she´s a liar)
b) Contradictions
Here enters Lisa too. In Diane Sawyer´s interview with Michael she said he proposed to her on telephone. Now she claims he asked her marriage with a ring and on his knee.
On Opra´s interview first she said they didn´t talk for about a decade after they break up in 1999/2000 (she said they dated four years after the marriage)but she said after that he call her in 2005 asking if she loved him yet.
I+m not expert on that case but some say that it was her who call him and there are pics proving she was dating other men on the time she said she was dating Michael. Really there are pics of both in 1998 but if you pay attention on pics and videos it´s like she was the one pursuing him. Do you know the famous photo which she was kissing him through the mask? Before that pic there is another one which she seems to try to remove his mask but he didn´t let her lol.
But of course they don´t want to see that! Jason contradicted so he´s a liar but Lisa nooo, she was just setting a record straight and she was honest now!
Suzy:
Charles Thomson's switch reeks of opportunism! Many people attempt to gain popularity through the fans. I think it's wrong. Do you know why he switched his opinions?
Lisa Marie Presley is desperately hanging on to Michael Jackson. She should realize Michael didn't care about her.
I have since ruled that she was a pathetic liar.
I have never heard of the gay photographer but just because Michael was 'uncomfortable' doesn't mean he's not gay.
What do the fans think about Naomi Campbell saying Michael told her not to touch him in certain places and that he didn't want her acting like a nymphomaniac while they were shooting 'In the Closet'?
She is a woman, isn't she? Yet Michael didn't like her like 'that'!
This all just goes to show that Michael was not with the program when in it comes with women. In 1991 Naomi was (and still is 20 years later) a very beautifil woman, albeit very strong and probably very dominant! Why the xxxx would he not want to get his hands on her and have her hands on him? I think we all know why! In 1991 MJ was sharing his bed with the likes on Macaulay Culkin and Brett Barnes why would he take a supermodel to bed? I have read a very funning story on the allforloveblog which is one of those sad fan sights where they believe that MJ was some kind of demon lover! Anyway Karen Faye tells a story that one day MJ was upset with Naomi because she was "talking dirty" to him after a while she got him to open up to her and after saying that she was saying bad things he said that Naomi told him that she wanted to suck his dxxx! Most guys would have been in heaven, not MJ he was disgusted by it apparently. Ola Ray also tried to insinuate that her and MJ got into some heavy petting sessions in his traile during the amking of Thriller, oh please, as if he was terrified of Brooke Shields when she tried to tongue kiss him, he is hardly going to let a rabid ran who did Playboy like Ola Ray get close to him, she would have eaten him for breakfast! The fact of the matter is that MJ was terrified of getting it on with woman, there are countless failure stories of girls he tried to date, marriages that were nothing but a sham and woman he shunned, who wouldn't have fancied June Chandler back in 1992, she was up for it but he choose Jordie instead!
Sarah:
Your comments are hilarious! :-)
Fans like to say Michael's a gentleman. Please; if you read Shmuley Boteach's book he was a sexist and hated women. I remember reading a story in the Daily Mail, I believe, and Mark Lester's wife said Mark told her she couldn't come to one of Michael's parties because she was a woman and Michael hated women.
I realize Lester is a shifty-eyed character but I think that was truthful, especially after reading the Rabbi's book!
I read the Ola Ray story in Vanity Fair (I have that issue in my house; the real delight is the true love story of Liz Taylor and Richard Burton, but I digress). I find it hard to believe.
Why not put any of these women on the stand in 2005? Surely that would have been a good idea, right? But there is NO WAY, IMO, that Mesereau didn't think that Michael was gay, etc., given what they confiscated from his house.
He was not interested in women; not at all.
Is it me or Karen Faye is trying to hide keep his sexuality all to herself? Why is she so possessive? I think it's because she's in love with him, an obsessed fan/crony, and KNOWS he's a gay pedophile.
Those are the only logical explanations. Naomi and Ola are very attractive women and he didn't want to do anything with them?
GAY (or pedophilic)! Any man, young/old, black/white, would have jumped at the chance of being with them, not to mention kissing the beautiful Iman. But we saw how that kiss in 'Remember the Time' turned out...
Desiree
Thanks for the compliment, I get so pissed off with these Jackson cronies who think they are protecting MJ by pretending that he is not gay. As has been said many times before being gay is not a crime being a "chicken hawk" is. I must admit when I read Christpher Andersen's book I didn't know what it was but I looked it up on Google I soon got the idea! We Aussie's call it a different thing! Karen Faye is patheic, I have been reading her tweets on Twitter, she constantly makes contact with MJ fans and argues with them as to whether he is alive or not, she answers ridiculous questions as to his love life (haha) and his favorite perfume. She even discusses his famous gold pants, I'm sure that's what all loyal employees do, discuss the size of your privates with the world! I think she would be better of asking his special friends that one! I'm not sure if you have read the email that I sent you regarding Karen Faye and LMP, now they are the best of friends but before they hated each other before. It's interesting to hear what she had to say about LMP prior to MJ's death. She called her an evil princess which I can believe she looks so miserable all the time. I find it very hard to believe that they had anything like a normal marriage!
Sarah you talked about LMP and I remembered something, when fans got anbgry against Klein they filled his facebook page with hate words but he didn´t delete any of them. The same with Alicia Jacobs.
But interesting enough, when somone write hate words on Lisa´s page she delete it and you cannot compare the hate they have against her with Klein´s...even little things like "stop to pretend you´re his widow Lisa" are deleted. But Klein´s page is filed with strong hateful words and he seems to not pay importance.
Makes me wonder...
It´s like Klein knows he just told the truth and they aee just crazy fans...
But Lisa, if she really said the truth on Oprah´s show why delete posts? I mean, I understand someone can be angry when mean words...but she could at least say something like "If you don´t beleive it´s your problem!" Even Klein said, when a fan called him attention to not put his numer on twitter, something like "If they call with abuse so the authorities will handle it." And his tweet to Liz, he could have stay silent but answer to her! If he told a lie so he would be afraid of her answer right?! Like "Yes Michael loved who he wanted but he couldn´t have loved Jason because he wasn´t gay!"
Another thing that hit me it´s she took time to talk. That case began on 26 April and she only tweet her thoughts on that 13 May! It´s like she thought a lot about she would to say! Why don´t talk to Arnie in private?!
And I´m upset how the fans think they know more that people who knew him more than a lifetime!
Recently Klein thanked Janet by twitter about her contribution to AIDS. A fan tweet him "OMG how can you even talk to her?" Serioulsy, if he isn´t afraid to talk to some family friends (Janet said nothing about Jason´s case)so he sure has his motifs!
Jealous, it´s what that fans are!
Desiree, about the Schmuley tapes, can you confirm me if Michael was a little homophobic there?! I read some fans talking about that...
Look that picture:
http://img819.imageshack.us/f/ffe60c1f41b5c59bcfaf9d6.jpg/
Do you know how was the fans reaction?!
"He should´ve pushed him!"
"That picture is scary!"
Look that ones.
http://img440.imageshack.us/f/64849034.jpg/
http://img338.imageshack.us/f/88792707.jpg/
That young man who was smiling at him was with him in more than that ocasion, along with Ohmar. I can´t find the other pics.
Suzy:
Michael was not homophobic in Shmuley Boteach's book. I don't know where any fans could have got that. They didn't even discuss homosexuality in the book.
Shmuley just mentioned that Michael liked to play a game where he'd guess who was gay based on how clingy they got to him. I thought that was weird! I could be wrong but that seems sort of gay to me, that Michael would determine who was gay based on how much a guy liked him.
Am I wrong? That's just odd to me that Michael would care so much, you know?
What he didn't like was women. That part is totally undeniable!
I can't make Shnuley out, one minute he defends Michael the next he casts doubt upon his innocence. He had been very candid about a lot of things, he has discussed Michael's porn collection, which is something a lot of commentators, even Oprah have not done. I'm sik of hearing how innocent he was and how he was child like. Sure some young boys look at Playboy, but Michael's collection was hardly childlike or innocent. I think like in all things Michael had a grand plan in life and manipulated many things to get his own way. I'm also sick of hearing what a gread dad he was, if that was the case, why are his kids orphans whose father killed him self by taking vast quantities of prescription drugs mixed with the highly unusual practice of taking Propofol to make him sleep. Addiction is a terrible thing, but help is available, if his kids meant so much to him why not get help and make sure you are around to watch them grow up! Also provide them with a mother that can nuture and love them. The lack of a mother was a purely selish act on his part, he didn't like women but needed apparently to be a father. I agree with Shmuley on all these things, however, I am sure that he had a sickness relating to his desires and that his interest in kids was unatural. Have you listened to the lyrics of "Speechless" it's a love song but this inspiration came from the Schleiter kids particularly the boy Anton. If he is so straight why not say the inspiration came from his girlfiend or lover not some adolescent boy! Even the way he talks about kids is creepy, who buys the lost childhood thing, NOT ME! Also Desiree in another post you said that MJ was ugly at the end, you are right, whatever happened to that gorgeous guy we saw during the BAD era and before? He was mighty fine in those days, he must have looked in the mirror towards the end of his life and wondered why he disfigured his face. I could live with the vitiligo thing, its the plastic surgery that I find weird.
I saw on a gay forum talking about Jason´s case...a fan girl made a ridiculous figure posting "proof" that Michael wasn´t gay. You know, the same: videos with him simply dancing with women at all. She has very few posts on the forum so she just registered for that...
Look for yourselves.
http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305358&highlight=Michael+Jackson
I aboslutely loved that post:
Can you back up this 'truth' with any sort of evidence? I've already shown you that the evidence you present isn't 'proof'. It is 'cover'.
"Can you prove to me that Michael was straight any more than you can prove to me that you are gay (if, indeed, you are)? Other than 'your word', I mean.
If you're going to be so gung ho about it, you should be prepared to back it up other than to expect us to simply believe you."
Worst of all people who says the nosense "he was married, gay men doesn+t get married with women..." BS!
Serioulsy is people like that that bring a bad name to MJ fans...
Anyone saw a video in which Michael said something like "look! Tits!" ?
Neither that it´s a proof, first he was with people around him, it could be a cover. Second we all know that Boy George is 100% gay and see what he answered to someone in his twitter:
@BoyGeorgeTempah No, tits are lovely!
lol
Quotes from: http://thisdaymichael.blogspot.com/
Bob Michaelson also noticed Michael's company: "On the road, in the studio, he always had some good-looking guy with him, usually somebody between 17 and, say, 20. Never a woman. Never."
The closer to the Gloved One, the less people speak freely. Nonetheless, Bob explains that "all the people around Michael thought he was gay, no matter what they said publicly. ... But if you asked me or anyone else [in 1984], we would have said it was young men, not kids."
Ola Ray concluded that Michael was "a space person" but noted that Marlon Brando's long-haired son Miko was around a lot: "They seemed to be best friends."
MJ at Studio 54:
<< Most others there assumed Michael's sexual orientation. "Of course we thought he was gay—or at least bi," remembered one the shirtless bartenders Rubell handpicked.>>
*******
I've read somewhere that Michael was afraid of Miko Brando and he wasn't the regular employee, he had "total freedom". Maybe they shared some secret and Mj was afraid of Miko going public?
Suzy,
I've seen the video where Michael said "titties". Fans are delusional. He wasn't admiring the titties, but mocking the girl because her titties where bouncing while she tried to reach MJs limo. We know how repulsed by women MJ was.
A five years old boy or girl could make that comment and that doesn't implies they are lusting after titties.
Most fans are stupid, too young, undeducated, unexperienced or all the former.
Susana (wow you have the same name as me lol)
Are you european? :)
Interesting what you´ve found. But I made a research on that blog with the word gay and found nothing...
I´m a fan but I´m not as naive as the others. I made my own researches (it was me who wrote that message to Paul Camuso)
Even this days people still believe gay men can´t marry with a women...
Hi Suzy! Nice to meet you.
Yes, I am European. You too?
I know you arent one of those stupid fans, LOL. When I mention fans are the irrational ones.
You can find the word "gay" like 7 times in the entry of Setember 5th. They tell the story of Scott Thronston also.
Yeah, many gay man are married with children. EVen Elton John was married once. Go figure!
Yes I am :)
I know about Elton Jonh. Even Ricky Martin had girlfriends, I think. I know Michael fans who are George Michael fans as well and admited they were shocked when he came out. So they´re admiting they can´t know when a man is gay or not.
Did you see the link I posted from that gay forum?
http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305358&highlight=Michael+Jackson
A crazy fans posted "proof" that Michael wasn´t gay...lmao, so Michael simply dancing with women and being married are proof?! Really like you said some fans are unexperienced. Of course she was slamed by a man on the forum.
You can discover on youtube stupid "proof" that Michael wasn´t gay. That proof is Michael just with women not even as a lover.
We´re on XXI century and people still thinks that a gay men can´t even took simple pics with female?!
My mail is mjlover87@gmail.com feel free to write me ;)
Susana,
If Mike was afraid of Miko Brando, it could be because, like you said, he was afraid of Miko exposing his lack of interest in the opposite sex. But I've read in a legal document written by the prosecution in 2005 that Miko Brando had stated back in 1994 that he wouldn't leave his kids alone with Mike. And in Victor Gutierrez's book, it was said that Miko was aware of Mike's interest in young boys.
So Mike's fear of Miko was well-founded. Ialso read that allegedly Mike was afraid Marlon too, because he was a "mafia-gangster" type. He only played one in the movies so Mike clearly wasn't that bright LOL.
Hey, Desiree, I must say that this is quite interesting. While I agree on a few things, I must say I disagree on a few others...
I believe that Michael Jackson may have molested children in 1993, but I do not believe he molested Gavin Arvizo. Now that is a case where you can definietly say it was an extortion attempt. All you have to do is look at the numerous inconsitancies, mistatements, and timeline. I'm willing to bet that if Gavin hadn't appeared in that damaging documentary, Michael would have never gotten accused, and that trial never would have happened..Here's some interesting information I picked up from an article:
"In January 2000, a woman name Janet Arvizo had consulted with a civil attorney about suing Michael Jackson for molesting her cancer-stricken child..The problem, however, is that in January 2000, Janet Arvizo had never met Michael Jackson, and neither had her son Gavin. In fact, it would still be another seven months before Jackson would even be introduced to the Arvizo family. This explosive information was revealed by Tom Mesaseru during a limited hearing, as well as the cross examination of Janet Arvizo":
-----------------------------
MESAERU: When did you meet Michael Jackson?
JANET: August 2000
MESAERU: According to this official statement/sworn declaration that you gave to the Santa Barbara Sheriffs department and district attorney, you retained an attorney and investigator in January 2000 for the sole purpose of finding out information about Michael Jackson and your children's relationship with him at Neverland, correct?
JANET:Yes
MESAERU: Why would you start investigating Michael Jackson in January 2000 if you didn't meet him until August 2000?
JANET: Ok let me explain something to you..
PROSECUTOR: Objection! Irrelevant.
JUDGE MELVILLE: Sustained
-------------------------
Many observers wondered why was Janet Arvizo investigating Michael Jackson and consulting with civil lawyers before she even knew him? was it her plan to meet the singer, establish a relationship, and once she got the info she needed, falsely accuse him of molesting her son? The timeline of the allege molestation also adds to the possibility of this scenerio being true. Prosecutors wanted jurors to believe that even though Michael Jackson knew Gavin Arvizo for over two years, he only chose to molest him AFTER the airing of a documentary that practically accused him of molesting the boy to begin with. And it has been mentioned but totally ignored, that Michael Jackson wasn't even staying in his bedroom during the time the Arvizo family claimed the allege acts occured...
Here's an interesting quote from Mark Geragos:
"The timeline is a joke. Mr. Jackson has an iron-clad alibi for all the dates they are claiming this allege abuse occured"
Here's a similar statement that was mentioned by Tom mesearu during his opening arguments:
"Ladies and gentlemen, the prosecutor
yesterday alleged that acts of molestation occurred during certain dates. We will prove to you that most of those dates, not all of them, but most of them, Michael Jackson wasn’t even near Neverland. Based upon our investigation, we can find four approximate dates where he was at Neverland. But a lot of the dates you heard the prosecutor identify, he isn’t even near the place."
Roger Friedman of Fox news released an article talking about this very interesting fact that many people didn't pay much or if any attention to that very well proved Jackson's innocence:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155329,00.html
Michael Jackson not being at Neverland would explain Gavin Arvizo's constant flip flopping and how he couldn't nail down dates of when the allege molestation occured.
The 1993 case was most likely fact, but the 2005 case was definietly an extortion attempt, and the Bashir documentary was the motive...What do you think?
You are the dumbest most gullible ass in creation.
@Sarah
You are entitled to your own opinion, but I don't think its fair to call Jackson a bad father when his own daughter stood up in front of millions of people around the world and humanized him. And its also unfair to say that "he killed himself" when his death was clearly ruled a homicide and was concluded by the medical examiner as the result of negligence and recklessness. And to ridicule him about his drug problem is also unfair because you are making it sound like addicts are criminals. Are you going to say that about every single person who lost their life or lost a love one to drug addiction? Something many people don't understand is that drug addiction is not something that just happens out of the blue. The majority of people who abuse drugs, alcohol, etc do it because they are hurting and are trying to escape pain. Take this from someone who's a former heroin addict.
With a father like this, who wouldn't be afraid to admit they were gay?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwRJYXgLg4
So true Luckygirl.
Many fans defend Joe because they think Louis was disrepectful and any parent would get angry at a question like that....but Joe went too far. It was like Louis hit a nerve on him. If he was so sure Michael wasn´t gay so all he had to answer was a simple "no". Acting like that he just raised suspiction. Besides claiming he had to have a boyfriend to be gay was just ridiculous. Anyone know what they like before their first boyfriend/girlfriend.
And we can´t forguet he was raised like a JW. They´re fully against homosexuality. I read an interesting depoiment on a gay forum. A man claimed having sex with a JW. Acording to him the JW felt bed because of that...but he wanted to repeat ;D
I mean felt bad
Pauline:
That is an interesting piece of information about Janet Arvizo but, I have to say, it's odd to me, given that I've seen the Statement of Probable Cause which outlines the incidents in order to search Neverland Ranch.
It's very convincing, although I don't plan to provide the link to it at this moment. Basically, you have the victims detailing what happened with Michael and his co-conspirators when their minds were fresh. I look to the timeline in that document for an accurate version of events, regardless if it can later come under scrutiny.
Anyway in it, Janet had to be told by investigators that her son was molested. She didn't even know.
There is a reason I've yet to talk about the Arvizos because I don't fully believe them. But I am leaning to the side he was guilty of molestation.
He did provide Gavin with alcohol and I do believe he showed them pornography. I also think he was trying to get rid of them. Jesus Salas stated he did believe they were being held against their will and a witness claimed to chase one of Michael's shadowpeople away from Gavin's school. They were being watched and Michael knew it.
Your tidbit of info is certainly strange and I'd have to do more digging. I just find it hard to believe Janet was a criminal mastermind. Especially given what Chris Carter has had to say about all of it.
But, I am reasonable and open minded and if I am presented with evidence, I have no choice but to indulge it. But I really don't know what to say. Had Janet's children talked to Michael before a physical meeting? Is this evidence even true and not spin or coverup from Michael's defense? I don't understand why Janet would ever allege something like molestation if she'd never met Michael Jackson. I cannot reconcile such a thing in my mind. Just all of the documents I've seen regarding this case makes it hard for me to believe she's a psychotic evil mastermind.
Notice that the defense only went after her for their case in chief. They thought she was the one who'd get Michael Jackson off. However, numerous staff members say she was never involved in what her children were doing, that they were with Michael without their mother. That she could build a very, very intricate story around Michael and her children were to go along with it--esp. given her mental illnesses--is hard to believe!
However, Gavin Arvizo not having been molested does not change the fact Michael Jackson was a pretty disgusting pedophile and molested all of his special friends--yes, including Omer Bhatti and the boys who've denied it. As well as other boys, perhaps.
He was a prolific pedophile with numerous victims. That is undeniable. Many of the jurors believed he was a child molester. Just not guilty of Gavin's abuse, maybe.
So, knowing he was a pedophile in 1993, you still like him?
I don't, given my research. Thank you for the info, Pauline. Perhaps you'd enjoy entries in the future. From now on, I am going to devote this blog to showing his guilt, since so many others still push the lie of his innocence.
There is an importance in balance...
Tracy:
"You are the dumbest most gullible ass in creation."
I understand that the truth hurts, especially if you've banked all of your quasi-masturbatory fantasies on Michael Jackson and his gold pants.
Michael engaging in sex with men is a FACT. Michael being a womanizer in his gold HIStory pants is only ridiculous rumor pushed by equally ridiculous and doubly deluded fangirls.
You, madam, are the gullible one. Stephen King said it best: 'The definition of an asshole is someone who doesn't believe what they see.'
Yes, that's it in a nutshell. Wise up, girlfriend.
@Desiree
I'm not necessarily a fan of MJ. Matter of fact, I didn't even know much about him until he passed away. I only became interested in his life because of all the coverage following his demise. I can say I believe the 1993 allegations because the first kid was quite credible and his story seemed to hold water, but the second kid I feel had many credibility problems. Many people have stated that Janet arvizo was too mentally unstable to mastermind such a scheme, but my whole thing is, if she can conduct a scheme against JCpenny, then why couldn't she conduct a scheme against Michael Jackson? The woman may have been unbalanced, but at the same time, she wasn't stupid, and I believe that Tom sneddon, with his long history of currupton, had alot to do with helping her, since of course it was his goal in life to get Michael Jackson. I read somewhere that he was seen shopping with the Arvizo boys in Beverly Hills, and was said to have been meeting secretly with Janet Arvizo in parking lots, which is highly unusual for a district attorney.
Like I said, the 93 allegations were credible, but the 2003 claims were obviously false.
Pauline,
I think it is unfair to say that Sneddon's whole goal n life was to get Michael Jackson. I think that is patently ridiculous. What would be his motive, hmmm? Because Mike was a black man, like those morons Geraldine Hughes and Aphrodite Jones seems to think? Couldn't it be because he genuinely believes that Mike was a pedophile given all the man hours he and the LAPD and the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department spent looking for evidence? I mean come on! That is just fan drivel and there is no proof of him having a 'vendetta' against Wacko Jacko. Even J Randy Taraborrelli said that if you think believing whole heartedly that Michael Jackson was a pedophile and he needs to be locked up is a vendetta then well I guess it's a vendetta.
"As defendant well knows, there was good reason to commence the investigation in 1993, and that substantial evidence of his misconduct was uncovered in that investigation. Defendent may wish to reconsider the wisdom of pressing his argument that the inability of the Los Angeles and Santa Barbara prosecutors to bring him to book in 1994 for his misconduct with Jordan Chandler was the supposed lack of convincing evidence thereof, as distinct from the effect defendant's ubstantial payment to chandler had on the youngster's willingness to further participate in the investigation. Plainly the evidence gathered in the course of that investigation, and the circumstances of defendant's settlement of Jordan Chandler's civil suit against him, is relevent to the court's assessment of the probity of the district attorney's conduct then and now."
"Defendant's ipse dixit that the DA has a 'personal animosity' and an 'intense personal dislike for mr. jackson' goes well beyond the commonsensical premise that a prosecutor in possession of substantial evidence that (a) a man molested a least one boy 10 years earlier but persuaded him not to cooperate with authorities by paying him an eight-figure sum and (b) molested another lad 10 years later, likely will not have a warm personal regard for that man."
Even you acknowledge that the 1993 claims are legitimate, as well as anyone with sense could see. The police found evidence of his misdeeds with minors but because of the payoff with Jordie, no one was allowed to hear the facts as presented to law enforcement. But Sneddon was privy to this information and clearly formulated a valid opinion based on it that Mike was in fact a child molesting pedophile. I'd want to get a guy who had as much access to children as Michael Jackson had off the streets too.
And you make the assertion that Sneddon has a long history of corruption. To what evidence do you base your claims? Katherine Jackson made the stupidest comment back in 2005 that Santa Maria was full of Skinheads and Tom Sneddon's son was one of them, which was patently false. I think that fans want to convict or malign every single person with a story of Mike's inappriopriate relationship with boys, even though it is far from reality to assume that every one of those people are lying.
I don't believe that Mike was an innocent target of some "racist" "mean-spirited" DA with a grudge. What grudge would he have against Mike, besides the fact that he had in his possession as DA evidence of that would likely show Mike as a pedophile?
I don't know the absolute truth regarding the Arvizo case but I think that it is strange that Janet Arvizo would be able to make alll of the details up. I've read the probable cause affidavit and I have to agree with Desiree, there is some stuff in there that makes me question whether it was a "set up." The affidavit is based on police interviews with numerous witnesses, it just seems unlikely that she made everything up. Why go to criminal court and not civil, esp. when that standard of proof is a preponderance of the evidence in favor of guilt rather than guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
@JMH
Here's an article about Sneddon's currupt history:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=64536
And as for the Arvizo family, many people have stated that they believed the allegations were true because they found it hard to believe that a parent would put their child through such a horrible ordeal and that a family would have never gone forward with this if they knew they were lying, but I think that's nonsense. The Arvizos had no choice but to go through with the case. They had already given their statements to the police, and if they had recanted, they would have gotten charged with public mischief and face jail time. So they didn't really have a choice. And you mentioned something about why go to a criminal case rather than a civil case..Well there's an easy answer to that question: Because of the change of law which stated that a criminal case had to come before a civil case.
And I do not believe Janet Arvizo made up everything that her kids said about Michael Jackson. These kids were old enough to come up with their own salacious stories, and unlike the jcpenny case, didn't need mommy to write their lies for them. The most she did was allow and encourage it.
Here's a very interesting video I found of one of the defense witnesses that was close to the family:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcXi3HHTIOY
Pauline,
I've seen that list of "corruption" before on another fan website and excuse me if I say what's your point? By the way, it seems like "Aphrodite" the author of the piece was trying to nail Judge Rodney Melville as well. Everyone is against Peter Pan, I get it. I don't see how bringing up alleged corruption is indictative of Michael Jackson being innocent of pedophilia. Sure, he may have not touched Gavin Arvizo, although in all honesty I still think something happened. So what I'm hearing is Janet (and the kids) concocted a story months prior to ever having met Mike and then when she (and the kids) made formal complaints to law enforcement, Sneddon and his ilk coached them to stick with their false allegations because Sneddon has some grudge against Mike, which I am still unaware as to what this grudge could possibly be? So was this a grand conspiracy to take down an innocent man, a conspiracy involving a family from the barrio, the DA of Santa Barbara County, the SB sheriff's department, two civil attornies, and a forensic psychologist? Did Sneddon intimidate all of these men jsut to put Mike behind bars, regardless if Mike was as pure as the driven snow? I'm sorry I don't buy it.
If the Arvizos did lie, I think they did it on their own. If Sneddon took on this case even though the witnesses/victims were less than compelling, I think it was probably because he genuinely believed that Mike was a pedophile and he had escaped before with that huge eight-figure settlement he gave to Jordie Chandler. That would explain all the 1108 material at trial; the Arvizos were "nuts" and the real credible evidence was in the past uncharged offenses against his special friends. I don't know, if that is corruption, it's almost noble.
Yes thank you for telling me about the criminal before civil law statute, that makes sense, seeing that that was how many criminals can shut up victims by settling a civil suit (as Mike did in 1994).
What I'm confused by is why you are so insistent on showing that Sneddon had a vendetta against Michael Jackson (still no proof there) if you think he was a child molester?
Pauline:
I think J-M-H has a point.
If you believe Michael Jackson to have molested Jordie Chandler in 1993 and this was the case Tom Sneddon and his team investigated, why does it matter whether or not he was corrupt?
If Sneddon thought Michael Jackson was a child molester, stacking the deck against him would be unethical in a legal sense but not really in a moral sense. Could it erode civil liberties and set a bad precedent? Yes and no.
But if he believed Michael to be a dangerous pedophile and, for instance, you agreed with him, really, what is your point of mentioning his alleged corruption? His alleged vendetta?
I'd have a vendetta against a prolific pedophile, too, especially one who's house is like Pleasure Island and has access to hundreds of kids a year.
Just like J-M-H said, it would be sort of noble.
As for the Arvizos, there's a reason I have never mentioned them on this site. It's because I find them to be not totally believable. I sort of believe them but not enough to stake my life on it, like I feel with the other boys Michael's molested.
But the Arvizos don't change the fact Michael Jackson was a pedophile child molester.
So, in conclusion, what is your point, Pauline? The Arvizos are practically moot.
@JMH
I don't have anything against Tom Sneddon. In fact, I take my hat off to anyone who believes in justice for children. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't know too many district attorneys who would crack jokes at a press conference, call the defendant "wacko jacko", do illegal searches, meet with witnesses in parking lots, etc..His unprofessional behavior is what leads me to believe that he was in it for more then just justice. No matter how guilty he believed Jackson was in 1993, I think he should have investigated the second allegations further rather than having to waste millions of our tax payers money.
@Desiree
Ok I can respect your opinion.
One of the things the crazy fans claim over and over is that JCs depiction of MJs genitalia wasn't a match. If so, I dont understand why his defence team would want this favourable proof out of the trial. This could have destroyed Tom Sneddon credibility and make MJ look innocent in the 1993 case and by association in the Arvizo's case.
Obviously, it was a match... a 20 million dollars match.
Pauline, in regards to your opinion of Sneddon, how many district attorneys do you know? And for anybody who reads this page, did Sneddon not have a search warrant? Pauline, unless Sneddon did not have a search warrant, he would have been in trouble with the law, and there would not have been case against Michael. When authorized a search warrant, the police are not required to notify the person in question. Otherwise, how would they find any evidence? Advance notice would give the defendent plenty of time to destroy the evidence.
Secondly, why wouldn't he take witness testimonies, at the scene? When there is an auto accident, that's par for the course.
Lastly, if you're going to attack Sneddon's record, let's be fair and examine Team Michael. Pellicano is in prison for his illegal methods, right now. He was involved in the Chandler incident. We could also begin an investigation of Mesearu's record.
I fail to see what Sneddon did as unprofessional.
Pauline,
I don't know what you've heard re: illegal searches, but I have read in legal documents that Judge Rodney Melville ruled that the search of Neverland and the search of Bradley Miller's apartment were completely legal. So you are wrong in that assertion. And items taken from the search of videographer Hamid Moslehi were legal. Evvy Tavasci's house was searched and it was legal. The search warrant to get DNA from Michael Jackson in order to identify the semen stains found on his mattress was legal. So you are wrong.
Sneddon used to be a cop so I can understand why he would be more "into the mix" with witnesses that perhaps other DAs but that doesn't make his conduct unprofessional. Tom Mesereau tried to get the indictment thrown out because of, among other things, Sneddon had shown Janet Arvizo some photographs in order to identify Bradley Miller, the PI for Geragos. He also took into possession the jacket and watch Mike had give to Gavin, directly from Janet. This was cop behavior, yes, but not unprofessional. Judge Melville ruled that Sneddon hadn't acted improper and that Mesereau's argument was not persuasive and that he didn't overcome the burden of proof to get the indictment thrown out.
The defense also argued to recuse the DA's office from the case, and that didn't work. I've read the documents and they in no way, shape, or form supported their argument for a recusal. They citied an alleged vendetta and that since Mike was a huge celebrity that was the only reason Sneddon was pursuing this case. The prosecution counterred by saying: "Should the defense attempt to open the door at trial they will invite the jury to see everything that is behind it. Obviously, if Mr. Sneddon's subjective motives are called into question, then all the information available to him about defendent will be offered in rebuttal. In other words, if the defense wants to argue that Tom Sneddon is persecuting an innocent man in order to 'take down a celebrity', than the jury should be allowed to form their own opinion about Mr. Sneddon's motives based on everything he knows about this defendent. This will include all police reports, all statements of past witnesses and victims and maong other things, corroborating photographs of defendent's genitalia. The defense does not want to got there."
None of the defense's strategies worked to get Sneddon off the case because they had no legal basis to get him or his deputies removed. It's only because Mike says that "Dom Sheldon is a cold man" in his ridiculously cacophonic song "D.S" that fans think he had a vendetta. But there was no legal basis to support that belief.
Susana,
You are right. The photos matched and that is why Mike settled. Sneddon wanted them entered into evidence and presented to the jury in late May 2005, but was denied. Why would he have wanted them entered into evidence if they didn't match; why would he want to risk looking like a fool? They always talk about the fact that Mike wasn't circumcised but Jordie was asked to give a description of an erect penis and uncut penises most definitely look circumcised when erect. Plus Mike may have had less foreskin covering his penis which can make it appear circumcised. He was a kid with his own penis being his only reference point. It matched and thats why Mike rushed to get the Chandlers bought off.
Len,
Your analysis is spot on. The probable cause affidavit was base entirely on police reports and that's why I have a hard time believing that they just made it up. It was just too detailed. And Janet Arvizo should have been allowed to answer the question as well, she probably would have given a decent answer but we will never know. She was mentally ill and was fairly all over the place at the grand jury as well, so she definitely should have been prepared better. Maureen Orth said it best re: Mesereau's defense tactic when she remarked that he wanted the jury to think "liar" every time they heard "mother". None of that was really relevant as to whether Mike molested Gavin. I remember reading in Aphodite Jones' book that Mesereau thought that it was so important that Janet Arvizo take the stand because of how she had acted in the grand jury, and he didn't want anyone to report her for welfare fraud lest she not want to take the stand. I guess he sensed that she was an easy target for character assassination because of her mental instabilty. That was quite clever of him. Janet was what the defense hung their entire case on; make her look crazy and Miek gets off. Actually Ann Gabriel testified at the grand jury that David LeGrand, an advisor to Mike before he fired him, said that they would make her look like a "crack whore" if anything was to happen. I guess she was right.
@Len
I think that's a very good point you made about victims not always being consistant, but I think the reason why Gavin wasn't believed was not only because of his many mistatements and inconsistancies, but also because of the timeline. I've read a few articles about pedophiles, and from what I understand, they are very secretive people. There isn't a child molester on earth that would go on tv and broadcast a child whom he planned to molest, admit without hesitation they have sleep overs, and only AFTER the TV special is aired and he is getting massive scrutiny for the special would he then begin abusing the child in question.
Because that's the Arivizo's time line, and it's patently ridiculous. They claim that only after the TV special aired that Jackson began molesting Gavin when the backlash he was getting was intense and knowing Sneddon was watching his ass like a hawk. Ron Zonen tried to clear this up by simply saying: "Why would he molest the child knowing the whole world was watching him?--Because he could. Thats why. That kid was in love with him. He would do anything he said. He felt confident knowing that all the controversey had died down so he made his move"..But the problem with that theory is, MJ knew this kid for over two years. This wasn't some child he met a few weeks ago. They had a relationship way before that, and I'm sure if he wanted to molest him, he would have done it a long time ago. And when you add that with the fact that this family went to Larry Feldman first as well as other civil lawyers, and waited 4 months before finally going to the police, that's even more reason to doubt the allegations.
I read an article about the kind of parents who make false accusations and the majority were said to have suffered from personality disorders such as histrionic, borderline, passive-aggressive, or paranoid schzioprenia. I don't have anything against Gavin. I actually feel sorry for him. He was an impressionable child under the guidance of an unbalanced con artist who used her son's illness to swindle money and ended up ruining his young life for her own selfish personal gain.
Pauline,
Have you ever seen the movie "Chicken Hawk?" Desiree posted the link to it, so you'll be able to watch if you haven't. Have you also seen the episode of 60 Minutes in which the members of NAMBLA were interviewed and openly discussed the love of little boys? I place Michael in that category. Like other pedophiles, he didn't think anything was wrong with having sex with little boys. Why would he not discuss the fact he slept with little boys on television when he thought everybody should have sleepovers with children?
I was planning to write a lengthy rebuttal to your post. But a question suddenly hit me. It is as follows. What are you trying to prove by discussing the Arvizo case? Every time I encounter a rabid fan, she (and the fans who argue over this are generally teenage girls or very young adult women.) starts fervently discussing how Michael was innocent of molesting Gavin Arvizo and then crucifies anyone associated with the prosecution side. That's why I want to know what your motives are.
I am going add, however, that I am sticking to what the criminologist told me to stick to, at this time, namely, the victim/witness statements and the police reports. Mentioning Janet Arvizo's mental health should not even be a discussion. It shouldn't have even been part of the trial. The trial was about whether or not Michael was guilty of molesting Gavin Arvizo, not whether or not Ms. Arvizo was crazy and unreliable. I also am more willing to lean toward believing a criminologist who handles child-molestation cases than I am a fan who attacks a woman who shouldn't have been the focus of that trial. Especially since the criminologist is not the first person to tell me Gavin was molested. I'm always more than willing to be proven wrong, although I'd give anything to see the non-public files he read. But right now, you're starting to parrot every other rabid fan I have encountered, especially since you have now dragged in Sneddon's name.
@Len
Rabid fan? I don't think so. I'm just giving my honest opinion based on the transcripts I've read from the trial. And as I said, I do not have anything against Tom Sneddon. I applaud anyone who believes in justice for children. I'm just dissapointed that a respected prosecutor such as himself would take a case like this, especially with the outrageous kidnapping claims, and waste millions and bankrupt our city on a family which he KNEW had credible problems to begin with. That money could have been spent on a REAL case, with REAL victims.
Pauline, read the legal documents, instead of the court transcripts. The legal correspondence between the defense and prosecuting teams is especially telling. I've discovered most of Michael's rabid fans have not read those. I am still plowing my way through the huge volume of court transcripts, due to my own very tight schedule. But those I have read have raised a lot of questions that should have been prodded more, during the court trial. The transcripts have demonstrated not only what a circus the trial was, but they showed, once again, the rich and famous can control the outcome of a trial.
By the way, I'm not sure which country you are from, but in America, extortion is a federal crime. Due to Michael's obsession with public image, he would have immediately had the Arvizos tried in criminal court. Janet would more than likely be sitting in prison, right now.
Maybe Tom Sneddon is a mean, racist prick, but he isn't responsible for Michaels behavior and didn't make up Jordie Chandler. Mike was a paedophile who was accused twice. He went away the first time because of the settlement. After that, he was traveling the world accompanied by his special friends, sleeping with them, crossing frontiers with them, even if their relatives weren't on board, Mike never had a problem and never was questioned by the authorities in any country. How people said Tom Sneddon has a personal vendetta against him? He could have used his power to bother him, to run some interference, to imply social services, to watch and question the families, to question their visas, work permits, etc, Omer, Brett and Wade weren't American Citizens . Do you think Michael's behavior changed after the JC allegations? NO. His ranch was visited by children like before and nobody did a thing against that. I don't know how those things work in America, but in most European countries you can't build an amusement park or a zoo with wild animals freely, and much less invite children over without being tightly controlled by authorities.
Rabid fans say he was tormented by the press and the cruel world blah, blah, blah. What??? He was behaving like before, even more blatantly and nobody did a thing or said something that damaging. Considering the character, he was treated with kid gloves.
He bought his children, he made their mother disappear, he isolated them... the baby dangling incident, feeding Blancket with the baby bottle while he was clearly high, traveling with his mannequins and other insanities, living in hotels with the kids, forcing them to follow his arbitrary schedule . He made a song about Demerol, he was drunk 4 or 5 days per week. And people still think he was pursued like a Jew in the Third Reich. Come on! He went away with everything because he was a celebrity. And he was very lucky. It could have occurred an accident at Neverland in one of the rides, or a children could have been harmed by a wild animal, or suffered an accident while on tour, or a member of his large staff could have been a rapist...but vice was stronger than common sense, right? How irresponsible.
@Len
I'm from Califonia, and yes you are correct. Extortion is indeed a federal crime as well as public mischief, and that is a very good question you brought up as to why didn't MJ sue Janet Arvizo if the allegations were indeed false because I know damn well if anyone did that to me, I would most certainly want to get even with them, but I think that the reason why he didn't file charges is because another case would have took more time, more money, more media, more lawyers, etc and after going through such a horrible ordeal, he probably just didn't care anymore, and just wanted to move on and raise his kids, which is understandable, but he definetly should have sued..Thats just my opinion.
Pauline,
Now you are saying Sneddon is a "respected prosecutor"? I thought he was corrupt and had done illegal searches, had a vendetta, etc, etc? why the change now? Oh that's because your previous assessment of him was flawed and came from a clearly lack of having all the facts and fan theory. Len is right, the legal documents are more interesting and telling because they talk about things that didn't make it into trial. The fans aren't well versed in a lot of things or else hey wouldn't be so quick to label Michael an innocent man.
You don't know if Sneddon was aware that the Arvizos were "liars". Yes they may have had credibility problems but if he believed that Michael was a pedophile, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE HE HAS SEEN (and I can bet he and many members of the LAPD, the SB Sheriff's department, the LA DAs office believe he was a pedophile as well),and he thought Michael had gotten away with being convicted in a criminal court because he bought the Chandlers' silence, I can understand why he would take the case.
You say the case was ridiculous and that may very well be true, but clearly it wasn't that ridiculous because on the numerous times the defense tried to get mistrials, get the case dismissed, throw out the indictment, and get search warrants suppressed, it didn't work because they could not meet the burden of proof for their arguments.
You should read the prior bad acts motion (that was granted because it is persuasive and has legal theory to back it up, the defense's replies were completely baseless) that is linked in Desiree's newest post and maybe you won't be so hell bent on defending Michael re: the Arvizos.
http://desireespeakssolisten.blogspot.com/2010/11/little-known-witnesses-is-everyone-liar.html
Pauline, I definitely can see and appreciate your opinion as one option. But the other side is Michael's historical behavior was to go after anyone he believed had said something incorrect about him. It's also not a case of Michael suing the Arvizos, for smearing his good name. It's a question of putting them behind bars, for the crime of extortion.
One of the pieces of information I was told from the inside is that Michael wasn't always a very nice person. He was emotionally and verbally abusive to people; he was also very spiteful when wronged. Initially, I raised my eyebrows at that one. But in reading published accounts of people's experiences with Michael, once again, the information I received proved correct. I can't imagine THAT kind of person letting this one drop.
What I find amazing is how sure Pauline is of herself. She knows the Arvizos 'lied' yet she was not there nor has she read the legal documents.
Sure, if it has been proven they lied--which it has not been; Michael Jackson was acquitted because Sneddon bungled his case and, let's face it, he was a celebrity--the money spent on that case would have gone well to numerous other things to benefit the public. Although, I must say, if I were a taxpayer, I would have no problem funding a trial to get a prolific pedophile off the streets.
Chris Carter was to be the star prosecution witness and he was unable to testify because the DAs decided they didn't want to risk his crimes killing his credibility. That was a woefully stupid move on their part. If he'd testified, I am sure the outcome of the case would have been very different.
Also, they dropped the ball with the photos of Michael's disgusting splotched penis. They argued it wrong based on testimony from Karlee Barnes that was later decided to be limited. If they would have argued it the way they did in court, it would have came in.
Transcripts are only part of the story, Pauline, and if you think you have a good grasp on the facts of the case from the trial transcripts which are a full 2 years following the alleged molestations and false imprisonment, you'd be wrong. The trial transcripts are NOT representative of the breadth of evidence against Jacko. Not even close.
All we have there is the cleverness of Tom Mesereau putting daggers through a mentally ill woman with a long history of being abused by her ex husband. She was not with her children when they were with Michael Jackson. Period. She was in the guest units doing other things.
The luxury of the defense is that they do not have to prove their client innocent. Fact of the matter is that most of the time they can't. All they have to do is poke the shallowest of holes in the Prosecution case. Most people accused of crimes are guilty of them.
We can never be sure of whether the Arvizos lied. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. Michael Jackson did give Gavin Arvizo alcohol; that is at least a charge on which he should've been convicted.
Funny, Pauline, is that you outline Sneddon's so-called history of corruption in one comment and then say he was a 'respected prosecutor' in another. Well, a corruption history is not usually not implied with 'respected', unless you know something that we don't know about a coverup to Sneddon's record. Or, perhaps, you are recognizing the fallibility of your own 'for certain' beliefs.
That would be smart of you. Please read and learn.
I avoided adding my 2 cents on this thread because I find repetition excruciating. I will tell you, and everyone else, my rules: if you don't have information to back up your argument, you cannot play. Don't think I'm attacking you because you hold a different opinion; not at all. However, you have not supported your 100% beliefs; opinions are not enough. I am curious as to how you got there so, by all means, defend it with legitimate sources.
By the way, I am not trying to play Big Brother but Blogger and my statcounter to the side allows me to know visitor origins. You said you were from California, and implied that you were from the city to which the Arvizo trial was held. The stats say otherwise, Pauline. If you are saying you're from Santa Maria just to bolster your belief, well, it's not true and that's a silly little trick not atypical of people who lack arguments.
Unless you moved from the city and live somewhere else now. Perhaps you moved AFTER Sneddon bankrupt the town?
Len:
That's a good point about Michael's spitefulness and lust for revenge.
He went after the Neverland 5 and Victor Gutierrez for the video he'd said he'd seen of Michael fellating a teen boy. He went after Xtrajet and Bashir.
He didn't sue Tommy Mattola but he bashed his character and called him a racist because his pathetic, yes, PATHETIC, Invincible album did not sale. His whole HIStory album was a 'fuck you' to people who called a spade a spade with regard to his preoccupation with young boys.
But he did NOT pursue the British press for calling him a pedophile or publishing story after story of people calling him a pedophile. He never sued Maureen Orth over her brilliant articles. He never went after Diane Dimond.
He never sued Gutierrez for 'Michael Jackson was my lover' or Ray Chandler for 'All that Glitters'.
He never sued anyone when it came to the child molestation issues. The reason for this was because that would open to the world his secrets.
And he couldn't have that.
He could've easily went after the Arvizos or Chandlers if they lied, but he did not. One can only wonder why.
@Desiree
I was born and raised in LA and moved to my current city in 2008, but anyway, I see your blog is only for people who agree with your thoughts and opinions, so there's no point in me stating mine, so I won't even bother. Hopefully the truth will come out one day, and if it doesn't then so be it..This is my last post regarding this subject. It was nice chatting with you all..Have a nice day.
Pauline:
Los Angeles is not the same as Santa Maria. So, you fibbed. Not exactly a surprise, is it, Pauline?
When put to the test, you failed.
I have no problem with differing opinions but if you cannot play the game by the rules, you must step away from the table.
Seriously, people... this is not about stifling speech.
If you have a differing opinion all I ask is that you support it with a great argument.
Here, you see the stupidity of one member of the rabid mass of Michael Jackson fans. When pressed, they crush under pressure, splattering like a weakened grape.
I will not tolerate bullshit and I get dizzy watching someone dance around the question.
Come with facts, not opinions based on nothing. That is all I ask of everyone. If you think Michael Jackson was an angel and tortured like a Second Christ, please support it.
If Sneddon is a monster, support it.
When following these rules, by all means, let's have a dialogue!
But if you crumble and have no more to give, concede like an intelligent person. Is it that difficult to behave and think rationally?
Don't run; be an adult, not a thumb-sucking crybaby.
LOL I'm a "stupid rabid fan" because I refuse to continue to argue over a case that died years ago? The only reason I even bothered to post here is because someone posted your blog on facebook and I thought it was a very interesting read. I just stated my opinions based on the things I've read. No need to resort to name calling, hun. It's not that serious. I just have better things to do with my time then to go back and forth over nothing. There's really no point and that's why I stated that the previous post would be my last post. There's more important things going in the world..Bye
Pauline:
I am merely calling a spade a spade. Stupidity is more of a reflection of a thought process, not the person.
Is your thought process 'stupid'? Well, in the spirit of debating as per my rules, I will use your devolving comments as my source du jour.
Well, I'd have to say the probability is fast approaching 1.
Please, in the future, don't back out; fight. But, since you had no argument, I guess I will begrudgingly accept your concession.
I don't mean to hurt feelings but I really will not mince words here. I am sorry if you were offended, Pauline, but you didn't pass the test.
I think your argument was built on sand and you know it.
Robert Wegner, former security chief in Neverland addressed some of the questions I mentioned in my last post. Read the whole article. Very interesting. I leave here an extract.
When Wegner arrived at Neverland as a security guard in 1990 � soon to be promoted to chief of security � he found that all was not perfect in paradise.
One of the first things he noticed was that some of the amusement rides were not safe. Wegner says he had to rescue a child who had fallen into the lake and nearly drowned. He also claims that some of the animals in the zoo were imported illegally. One, a strange cross between a zebra and a donkey, went mad and died, he said. According to Wegner, Jackson himself was not a model pet owner � throwing rocks at his lion simply to make it roar.
Directly across from the amusement park was the cinema, containing not only reclining chairs but also two private viewing rooms complete with curtains, chairs and a bed in each. Sometimes, according to Wegner, Jackson took children into one of the viewing rooms and closed the curtains.
The former policeman noticed that a night log, required by fire regulations, recorded where the young guests were sleeping if they stayed overnight.
He said last week: �Although boys and girls of all ages came to play at Neverland � and despite the questionable condition of some of the rides they always enjoyed themselves � it was overwhelmingly boys aged between eight and 12 who stayed in Michael�s bedroom. I do not know what happened behind those closed doors. Who really can? But it raised a lot of questions which still trouble me.�
Now 68 and living in Nevada, Wegner has written a short memoir of his three years working for Jackson, published in California by 1stBooks Library. He writes that he paid close attention when Jackson was around children. It appeared that the singer always stood close to them so their bodies would make contact.
�This kind of surprised me, because most of the time when he was around adults he would always keep his personal space between him and the other person.�
He continues: �When Michael was on one of his electrical carts, he would have a young child riding next to him and Michael would be sitting in such a manner that he was touching the child with his leg . . . The touching was done so casually the average person would have never noticed it. My many years in law enforcement had taught me how to observe things that the average person would never see.�
Wegner �started thinking maybe there was nothing wrong � that Michael was just using poor judgment when it came to having those children sleeping with him in his bedroom. But it was too overwhelming to just disregard what was happening with these children. Whenever he would take them to his amusement park, he would always sit as close to the child as he could�.
Wegner added last week: �When I first arrived at Neverland I thought it was paradise. I liked working with kids and it seemed a happy place. But there were things the staff would not talk about, such as the sleepovers.
�I do not mean to be dramatic, but there was an undercurrent of evil at Neverland. Parents were glad to dump their kids on Michael for a few hours, but I wonder how they feel about it today.�
Even before the Bashir documentary was aired in America, there was a strong lobby in California, where all three of the Jackson children legally live, asking the state�s department of children�s health to investigate his suitability as a father.
Critics cited the Berlin incident and the handful of public appearances where the tiny trio have been seen shrouded in veils and isolated from other children.
Gloria Allred, a prominent Los Angeles lawyer who worked briefly on the Chandler allegations, is determined to challenge Jackson in court: �This is not a healthy man: do we want him to pass on his attitudes to a third generation? He obviously loves his children, but is that enough? They may be better off without him.�
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/838927/posts
Susana,
I read the whole thing. I only remember hearing about Rob Wegner when I was reading "Dangerous Liasions" by Carl Toms, and how he said he threw rocks at his lion, which pissed me off! And when he said that Pellicano told him to give him the visitor's logs so the police couldn't find them. I know they cleaned Neverland and the Hideout good before the raid in 1993, I bet they would have found child porn or some other incriminating evidence esp. since they found those books with naked white boys in them in 1993. Kat Pellicano said received a suitcase from Mike's Hideout condo, and Gary Hearne, Mike's driver said that he delivered it to her and Anthony. I bet there was something in there that if found by police, it would have hurt Mike.
It's pretty obvious that Mike was a sick pedo, and I just think that there are more people out there that have seen stuff like Rob Wegner has that just are afraid to talk.
I always wondered where the porn was in the Chandler case, I think Michael had mags dating back to 1991 so I'm sure he had it around when Jordie was at Neverland and the Hideout. I always thought the black suitcase thing was strange, I don't believe that Kat Pellicano didn't look in the suitcase given Michael's reputation. Wouldn't you look, I know I would, that info would have been very useful in 2005, much like Jordan Chandler's testimony would have been useful! But alas that was never going to happen, JC could have changed that verdict. I have had some contact with a person, whom I have mentioned here before that said that the grand jury 1993 had much evidence that would have made an inditement immiment had MJ not settled. Pretty funny how MJ settled very shortly after the body search. I have seen a video with the Dr who undertook the body search, it is quite revealing (excuse the pun!) he says that he believed that Jordy's description did match the photos. Of course the fans refute this and say that it didn't. Let's remember Jordy was Jewish and as such probably circumsized, I am told that there isn't much difference between a circumsized and a non circumsized penis when erect. Hopefully Jordie hadn't had too much exp with adult male penises and didn't really know the difference - until he met MJ that is! Either way if there hadn't been any hanky panky Jordie could not have described the lack of pubic hair or the blotches on Mj's ass. Also very telling is that the DA wanted to re introduce the photos as evidence in 2005, that speaks fot itself. With regard to the Arvizo's, I didn't really believe them in the beginning but I do now. If money was their main motive, don't you think the News of the World or the National Enquirer would have paid handsomely for that scoop! They had no confidentiality agreement like the Chandlers and nothing to stop them spilling the beans. But they didn't, to me that speaks volumes, they just moved, changed their names and got on with life, Gavin in particular is achieving great things at college and hopes to be an attorney. Their lives can hardly be easy given that they are always given the tag of grifters and extortionists. That argument never held water with me, where was the money trail? Unlike the Chandler's whom we believe did tell the truth, although bound by very tight confidentiality agreements, they still managed to get their story out mainly thru Raymond Chandler the boy's uncle for whom no keep quiet contract existed. He wrote a book, appeared on countless docos and interviews. The Arvizos by comparison have never been interviewed or sold their story. There is one piece of info available on the net which is supposed to be an email from Star to someone who contacted him, in it he states Michael's guilt and calls him a cocaine snorter! Interesting eh, remember the undies!
Sarah, the rabid fans use the circumcision as a proof that the depiction didn't match. But, as you say, an uncircumcized penis looks circumcized when erect. Well, in Europe men (as a general rule) are uncircumcized, and really I don't think it is that different when erect, much less for a 13 y/o boy.
The markings and other characteristics mentioned by Jordie were more relevant and unique.
If Jordie had identified the Tour Eiffel tattooed in his penis, but failed just a millimeter in the exact size of the thing,the fans would say the depiction isn't a match.
YOu are one sick mother fucker! Your ass did not do your research. I have researched MJ and all this bullshit you have said on your stupid blog is just what it is shit! You took things out of the court transcript out of context. I'm not even going to go into all the shit you wrote on here because it would take too long to explain. Do yourself a favor and read the full set of court transcripts. Do yourself a favor and read through Aphrodite Jones book. Jones looked through all the evidence involved in the case...those used in court and those not used. Are you saying you know more than her? You have no clue. You and all the idiots on here following your ass should be shot.
You are dragging this man's name through the mud. A dead man who has kids. Are you thinking of his children when you write this piece of shit you call a blog. What is the point of this blog. What is your fucking agenda. What point are you trying to prove here.
MJ was not guilty, MJ did not hate his race and MJ was not gay. First, if you bothered to look through the transcript and all the evidence that were used your ass would have learned the man was innocent. Second, who the fuck are you to claim the man hated his race. Maybe you should spend a little more time research Lupus and vitiligo before opening your damm mouth...ignorance is not bliss. Third, there is no proof MJ was gay. All the bullshit you put in your blog don't prove anything. You're taking rumors and nonsense people have said about the man to prove a point...which at the end you failed to prove. Not one single proof. Don't give me that bullshit MJ fans are blinded when it comes to his sexuality. First of all I am a bi-sexual woman. I could care less if MJ was gay or straight. I love the guy for who he is. His sexuality is of no concern to me but what bothers me is when people make false claims about his sexuality. People who have no clue...never met the guy once in their life but yet act as if they have some proof he was gay. I'm not blind. He said he was straight and is pretty obvious the man was straight. Those who knew have said the man was straight. They knew him better than you. So what give you the right to make stupid claims and assume they are covering up. What the fuck is wrong with you.
Like I said, I don't have time to go into all the bullshit you wrote on here. I can go over the facts with you but your ass probable won't read any of it because you are one dumb mother fucker.
You have an agenda by writing this blog. Is obvious you are no fan of MJ. You are one fucked up hater who has an agenda. You are playing a game. I'm going to see to it that your blog gets closed down. If I have to get MJ fans from different forums to come on here and complain until you close down this piece of crap I'm going to do it. Close this piece of crap down asshole!
@ Chitexas
Blah Blah Blah Blah. Don't be like the Catholic Church during Galileo's time and try to deny scientific evidence. Please, get it together and stop worshipping a man you've never met and never will because he has passed. You've clearly put all of your hopes and dreams into this one fallible human being because he could moonwalk and made "Thriller". I pity you...and I wish you would try to shoot me. Pointless internet threat that only makes you look ridiculous.
Chitexas:
Comments like yours actually make my day, to be honest. So delusional, so comical.
I should tell you that I am in the process of writing an addition to this post here, and I hope you return to read it. It will contain all of the additional information that led me to the conclusion that the scientifically proven semen stains from THREE DIFFERENT MEN, when coupled with other evidence, is strong circumstantial proof that Michael Jackson was gay.
I'll have you know that I did, indeed, read Aphrodite Jones' book. It's a whitewash of the trial; it really does say a lot about Tom Mesereau that he says the book is a definitive book about Michael's trial.
I advocate people to definitely read the court transcripts, as I have. As well as read all of the documents you can about the trial. There are many documents and a lot of them show Michael Jackson as guilty. Because he was.
I'm sorry you are so blind! No man pays $25 million (not $15.3 mil) and then $2.4 million if they are innocent. And don't give me that jive about him being forced to settle. Because I have done my research, I know this is not at all true.
I've read a lot to come to the conclusion that Michael Jackson was a gay pedophile, so I would have no problem hearing any and all evidence you could bring to me in rebuttal. Just make it good.
I enjoy sparing, Chitexas. I love it more than a lot of things.
No, no, I will continue to write my blog in hopes that people will learn the truth about Michael. I also don't give a rat's ass if his children see it. I couldn't care less.
And, by the way, Michael Jackson did hate being black. The skin is one thing but he did not have to keep making his nose smaller and smaller and call black people 'splaboos'. quincy Jones said he didn't like to be black, is he a liar, too, Chitexas?
He definitely knows Michael better than you did! As did those people who said he was gay or 'not into women'.
Chitexas, if you are not black, you have no right to talk about whether Michael was a self-hating black man. If you are black, you are a fool not to see he hated our people and our race.
And, please, by all means, bring fellow Michael Jackson fans to come and attack me here on the blog. But I'd prefer it to be an intellectual attack; hard evidence to refute me, please, not low IQ fan drivel from Lipstick Alley or a vindication blog.
I assure you, if you can refute me or prove me wrong, I will change my mind since I like to be on the right side of history. But I find the prospect of you being successful in refuting my beliefs dubious.
Good luck trying to get my site shut down, by the way. Why does every Jacko fan act like a member of a lynch mob? If you don't like what I say, just read elsewhere.
But remember, just because you 'look away' doesn't change that I have court documents and actual testimony and articles to back up my opinions. Truth never changes; it can be hidden, sugar-coated, or denied, but it never wavers.
Don't forget that...
LOL, blogs like yours make my day as well. So Jones a woman who was in the court house every fucking day and the judge allowed her to view the evidence by herself after the trial white washed her book but you who was never in that court house is telling the truth. Delusional much! Give a break with your bullshit. I have read everything there is to read about the allegation in 93 and the trial. You are full of shit. You have no evidence. This is your opinion and that is what you are on here promoting.
When did he call black people "splaboos"...lol. You compile information from various sources that are not credible because it proves your bias opinion and suddenly that makes it facts. If you have researched MJ a lot then you would know Quincy Jones was very bitter about the end their working relationship. If you have researched Quincy you would know he tends to run off on the mouth about a lot of things. The man has no tact. Is not Just MJ fans who say this about Quincy. Many people (fans and nonfans) say this about Quincy Jones. An old man who doesn't know when to shut the fuck up is your source...lol. Oh let me guess Bob Jones as well. Who else the media and tabloids. So after his autopsy came out did you see Quincy, the media and tabloids still claim MJ wanted to be white. Oh let me guess, you will also claim the autopsy report doesn't prove anything. You might even cut and paste the areas that suit your opinion to prove your point. Are you also a medical examiner expert as well...lol. I realize today that many fans know of you. Many have come on here provided you with accurate information and links but you delete their post because you don't want anyone challenging you. Showing proof that you are full of shit. You don't want that of cause. People have giving you hard evidence but you don't post it. Is funny that all the comments on here are those who support you. Why not leave all the other comments on here regardless if the support you or not...interesting! Hard evidence...yeah I think the trial transcript is a pretty damm good hard evidence.
What does a man having plastic surgery have to do with his race. Seriously, do you honesty think Plastic surgery was invented for white people only. So what you're saying is the fact he didn't like his nose and changed it means he hated his race...lol. Do you know how many black people I know who would have surgery if they can afford it. Listen here idiot his surgery had nothing to do with race. It has everything to do if one likes the way they look or not and if not can they afford to change it. That is all there is to it. Is pretty racist of you to assume because he changed his nose that must mean he didn't like his race. People like you and your ignorance really get under my skin. You are on here making a stupid connection that don't add up. LOL...is laughable to say the least.
And what friends say MJ was gay? LOL...let me guess Dr. Kline or maybe the book Unmasked? Give me a break!
Court transcript...let me see you cut out the parts that fits your agenda and discarded the rest. From your blog is obvious you didn't read the transcript or have an understanding of it. Is also obvious you have taking things out of context to prove your agenda. Listen here, I have read that court transcript, all the testimony and articles relating to the the 93 allegation and trial in 2005. There is nothing to sugar coat or hid. The truth is right there if one makes the decision to really look into it without bias.
Chitexas:
That diatribe is only proof of a low IQ. That, coupled with idol worshipping a deceased pedophile, is all I need to know about you, Chi. Please, at least refrain from cussing. I have to admit I do find it funny but it only makes you look ignorant.
Are you aware that Maureen Orth and Diane Dimond also sat in the court everyday and still believed he was guilty? And, we should note, these two women have been documenting Michael Jackson since 1993, both having talked to numerous individuals involved in Jacko's woes. Yet, they still believe in his guilt.
If you haven't read Orth's piece 'Nightmare in Neverland', you should. She was so fair to Michael, which is a contrast to how she was in her later articles. You have to ask yourself: why did she change her opinion?
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1994/01/orth199401?currentPage=all
As for Aphrodite Jones, she is very unintelligent and is a poor writer. She thought Michael Jackson was guilty for at least a year following the trial. It is one thing to think Michael was innocent in the Arvizo case, but for her to think he was incapable of molesting a child when she has had absolutely no contact with anyone from the 1993 case? That is ludicrous.
http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/07/true-crime-reporter-aphrodite-jones-has.html
Yes, her book was a total whitewash of the case. You should know this if you had actually read the transcripts. She painted a portrait to go with the Not Guilty verdicts but she left out numerous tidbits that pointed to Michael being a pedophile. Sure, it's all circumstantial at the end of the day but it's solid.
As for Quincy Jones, whether or not he has 'tact' does not make him a liar. He had a strong affection for Michael and was hurt in his relationship. Again, please show proof before you label him a backstabber or a lying opportunist. He knew Michael much better than you, so excuse me if I take your analysis of his views on Michael with a grain of salt.
(cont.)
Chitexas:
Michael Jackson did not like being black and this is something many people have mentioned already, including Quincy Jones. Yes, that includes Bob Jones as well, who I do find credible, more credible than Aphrodite Jones because he spent 30+ years with Michael. Just because he wrote a tell-all and Stacy Brown admitted on the stand that publishers push for salaciousness which may lead to imaginative fiction, does not mean everything in the book was a lie. Splaboo was mentioned by Bob Jones and was mentioned a decade earlier in Victor Gutierrez's book but the pronunciation was 'spabook', as told to him by Michael's foreign workers who had accents.
Now, any intelligent person will know splaboo and spabook are the same words. The corroboration across a decade is uncanny and is proof Michael said it about black people.
Also, it should be pretty apparent to you that the extensive narrowing of his nose, when he could have stopped at Off The Wall or the Thriller album cover, was a cause for concern. That was not simply someone unhappy with their appearance; that was someone in need of therapy.
No, plastic surgery was not invented for white people, which is a strawman on your part. But anyone with a functioning brain would be able to see that there was cause for concern. It wasn't simply that Michael didn't like a feature and wanted to alter it.
He wanted to erase it, which is completely different.
You know, Chitexas, you make a lot of accusations against me. I have never deleted peoples comments on this blog if they've disagreed with me. I've never really had the opportunity to because I'm preaching to the choir.
These people are my readers.
Only one person has been deleted and it was not due to links or because they had evidence to 'refute me'. It was because this person was indecipherable and trying to control the way I researched. She told me not to research into pedophilia and this and that. I told her to start her own blog.
I deleted her because I was tired of her nonsensical rants and her BS. I really don't stifle speech but no one controls what I do here, definitely not someone just dropping in on an already established blog. She forced me to continue to repeat the same thing over and over again.
I've stated quite clearly that if you have any evidence, and good evidence in the form of article, transcript, document, video, etc., to refute me, by all means, link it. I have no problem with that.
But most fans who come on here do nothing of the sort. I end up scaring them away after chastising them for being ridiculous and spewing baseless drivel.
If I have facts to support my opinion, it is not fair that I'd have to debate someone's baseless opinions based on no relevant sources.
I will say that I have been deleted on several MJ blogs because I have asked questions they cannot or refuse to answer. I do not do that here because I find you guys entertaining.
(cont.)
Chitexas:
You also accuse me of taking things out of context, which is totally untrue. I provide links to all of the documents quoted. All of the trial transcripts are available online. I quote directly from magazines, websites, books (with the page numbers).
If you think what I do is taking things out of context, it is only because you believe what I've excerpted was convincing to Michael's guilt.
You also accuse me of looking at things with a bias. Well, of course I have a bias and an agenda: I believe Michael Jackson was guilty of molesting numerous boys, and I have set out to prove this because people try to say otherwise, which is false.
However, this does not prevent me from being honest in my research and being objective. I can be objective. Can you? If you've read the transcripts and all the books and articles, etc. regarding Michael's issues, you have to be in denial to think he wasn't, at the very least, untoward and inappropriate with young boys.
As for Michael being gay, well, this should be obvious. Many people have said he was not straight or virile as fangirls try to convince themselves that he was. Ian Halperin's book is interesting but I don't use it as a source. I only mentioned it because he talked about Michael being gay.
Again, I am writing another post about Michael being gay to prove my points. Please stay tuned.
Lastly, the fact you get angry just shows that I am doing something right. One of the first responses to fear is anger. That's exactly what you're doing.
I suggest you move beyond fan blogs for research. I stopped, and when I did my own research and focused only on documents, transcripts, articles, books, videos, etc., I realized Michael was guilty.
The only people who think he is without a doubt innocent are people who are blind idol worshippers or have just not looked deeply into the cases, especially with a pragmatic eye.
He really was guilty of molesting boys. Get over it. Most people beyond the fan communities think he's guilty. Not that popularity is always an indication of quality, but it does say a lot: you fans are blinded by adoration and are in deep denial.
Desiree,
I find it fascinating the post that brings over Michael's rabid fans in a flurry is this one, showing Michael was gay. I guess you have struck a nerve, in that you have popped their collective masturbation-fantasy balloon. Sometimes reality is so painful for people, they react with rage.
Keep up the good work! Your blog is such a breath of fresh air, amidst the madness of his rabid fans, especially since you post links to your research, which back up your conclusions. Last year, when I was told Michael did molest little boys, I felt as though I were walking around with a terrible burden. I just didn't want to argue with those who worship on bended knee, at the Church of Michael Jesus Jackson.
I also find it ironic his lunatic fans think they have the clout to bury people. That they were referred to as "knuckleheads" on television shows, right there, what sane people think of them.
Oh Desiree, you are a cold hearted woman. You are ruining the masturbatory fantasies of those poor girls with incontestable facts:) At the mention of the gold pants, they start salivating as Pavlov's dog.
They are lusting after a DEAD GAY PAEDOPHILE... what a creepy thing to do! No wonder they worship another twisted soul, their Messiah.
As Len says, keep up the good work. I'm sure they find your blog searching "Michael Jackson was gay" in google.. talk about hypocrisy. Sure it is the only sane neurone in their brains trying to show them the light.
Len, Susana:
Blogger lists visitor origins and apparently I had been mentioned in a Lisa Marie Presley-Michael Jackson fan forum. Last time it was in another forum on IMDb. That's where these individuals come from.
I find it funny that they leave so quickly. They attack my work and say I take things out of context, even though I provide the links to these documents so people can read it themselves.
If they'd like to debate, go right ahead. But they really don't have anything, do they?
I read that they think this semen evidence was planted. Sure it was. That makes no sense. If Sneddon was going to plant semen for his case, he would have used relevant samples, duh.
I didn't make up the things in this post. Scott Thorson and Jason Pfieffer aside, the fact of the matter is Michael had semen on his bed. It's in a DEFENSE document. That has nothing to do with me.
They always claim to read so much and know so much but why react in anger at what I write if you 'know' it's untrue?
I guess I must be a little bit convincing and they can't take it. A guy from the blog Vindicate MJ always goes around saying I'm such a hater. Others immediately resort to saying I'm a nutcase, brainless, liar, fraud, etc. Yes, attack the messenger to calm the feelings of unease at the message. Typical tactic of people in denial. So pathetic.
And I've never stifled speech, except one time because the person was seriously trying to convince me to do something a different way and round and round we went. She had nothing to prove her points except fan blogs about his gold pants and other things I would've wasted valuable time answering and refuting. So I deleted all of it.
She was pissing me off, my only time of human weakness. ;-)
And that's a good point, Len: There's no way to 'bury' me because I am doing the same thing the vindication blogs are doing; I'm just presenting the other side.
They hate it because they know it makes a lot more sense than the image crap.
I will keep going. Seriously, bring it on.
I just read your whole silly ass article and I have to say, what an eye opener.NOT!
First lets start with this Michael Jackson was bullshit. Because he wore make-up, spoke softly and had a maternal way about himself, does not make him a homosexual. If he was so gay because he wore make up, then why did he not shave the hair off his body. In his autopsy, he still had pubic hairs, armpit hairs and hair on his legs. Not to mention whenever he was shirtless during one performance or another, he always had hair under his arms. Now, that is kind of unimportant to what I am trying to iterate. However,it essential to know a little about homosexual culture before stating or blurting out someone to be homosexual. Michael Jackson had no kind of male porn in his home, something most homosexuals would have. In your worped mind, he just probably hid them or never had any. "NEWS FLASH BITCH", homosexuals who have those kinds of urges would have some kind of gay stimuli hiding around, even in their computers, something that was apparently not in his vast collection heterosexual porn. It does not matter if he was in the closet about the issue, most people who have those kinds of urges, usually do not not collect that kind of material. I could see if there were male pornographic pics found at his house that were in the same nature as the heterosexual material that was presented in the case, however, that was not presented there and non was found.
Secondly, You present documentation about the DNA evidence. Furthermore, I cannot believe that you would twist this as some kind of evidence of his supposed homosexuality.The only person(s) in denial is yourself and the people who are the very same idiots that come on here. Michael Jackson had many people in his home. A home, he rarely stayed at. Some have went have probably have had sex at his house or some kids probably masturbated in certain areas that were private and used a piece of clothing to wipe the cum off of their penis. That something that most men do when they are pounding their puds. as for the DNA being from two other men, now I know about DNA and they cannot analyze it being from just MEN, it could be from a male. A man or a young boy. A young boy who found privacy somewhere to jerk himself off probably. You have not presented no kind of evidence to say that Michael had sex with men or boys. As for Michael's semen being found, come on! With the vast collection porn in his home that was confiscated, his ass better have jerked off to that shit. Porn is not just for reading pleasure you fucking FROON.
Another thing, how in the hell can some be a pedophile, homosexual and a self race hating person at the same time. Your shit is more worse than the gibberish than what the hell I am writing.
I understand you revel in insults to your character. GOOD then because there will be alot more of us coming for your ass. And, if I may say myself, if I had ever met you in person, I would beat the ever living shit out of you for your diatribe you call proof. GO EAT SOME MONKEY NUTS AND THAT GOES FOR THE REST OF YOU DUMBASS FROONS
Desiree,
So, the rabid fans think the semen was planted? I'm trying not to fall out of my chair from laughing! But if Sneddon had walked to the mattress, sheets, and underwear and thrown semen on them, he would have gotten it from Gavin Arvizo. But the semen was from different males the forensic lab did not identify. In addition, if Sneddon wanted to throw semen around the bedroom, I suspect Mesereau would have wanted to throw vaginal secretions around, too, just to mess up the evidence. As it stands, Mesereau didn't want the lab results brought into the trial. I don't recall reading anything in which he accused Sneddon of flinging cum around. (God, what an image I have in my head, now!)
Whatever will these people come up with, next?
dyhard123:
I am in the process of writing an addition to this post that will try to answer as many questions raised as possible to support this article. I suggest you read that when I post it. I must say, your screed has only solidified my quest to continue writing about Jacko.
First of all, I don't think Michael Jackson is gay because he wore makeup. That is ridiculous. However, his obsession with his looks is a feminine thing to do. Most straight men don't carve up their faces, maybe except Burt Reynolds but, unlike Michael, Burt has always been linked to women.
It is when you couple a lot of factors and this evidence of semen on his bed, things start to make you go, 'Hmmm... Could this be some kind of proof?'
As for the semen on his bed and in sheets and underwear, it's funny that you think your conclusions are more correct than mine. I really don't want to go into it here because I'm writing about it at the moment and you will just have to read it.
But, I find your conclusions naive.
As for pornography, investigators found more semen stains on his nudist mags that contained naked men and children as well as the nude women than the 'sexy' girlie mags. Which is really interesting. Michael Jackson did have gay porn in his home; it was a book featuring oral and anal sex and masturbation between men--porn!--called 'Man, A sexual study of Man'. He also had numerous gay art books showing men in love. Don't forget the naked boy books.
Not exactly the profile of a straight guy. If you think it is, please explain it to me.
The porn has been said to be shown to boys. I am not saying Michael did not look at it but I believe it was for the purpose of sexing these boys.
I used 'man' and 'men' in this post but I don't think Michael was really having sex with men. Maybe 20 year olds or 19 year olds, but I think the semen was from boys he's molested.
Are you black? Because if you are black and think Michael liked being black, you are naive and blind. If you are not, I don't think you are in the right mindset to say he was not self-hating. His nose is proof #1 that he was.
I actually find it really tiring to respond to all of you. I think you have a low IQ. Anyone who worships Michael Jackson and are willing to beat someone up on behalf of a dead guy, I know you are not playing with a full deck.
And, again, I think you have a low IQ. Your username says it all!
But anyway, I will be writing an addition to this. Wait for that to read and educate yourself. By the way, I know you have been using various screen names but are just one person. If that is your way of bringing all of your friends to 'attack me' then by all means, continue.
To the hoe called len. I dont recall in my comment saying that anything was planted you fucking FROON. Now I am falling out laughing at your figuratively stupid comment. I am telling you what could have have happened as to why there was cum in the house since there was cum in the bedroom. I did not say anything was being placed there by the police you dumbass froon! go eat a sack of goat dicks.
dyhard123:
Just as I said: you have a low IQ. I feel sorry for you.
How old are you by the way?
Thats really nice language, I hope your mama is pround dyhard 124. I hope you don't have kids because decent parents should never support a pedophile! If you don't like what is being said here go play with the idiot fans on Lipstick Alley or some other fan site, where stupid girls who probably weren't even born when MJ was at his prime, fantasize about the gold pants and the size of his dick! You make me sick, you obviously don't know anything about what was found in MJ's playboy mansion. He had heaps of homoerotic stuff, some of it so graphic it couldn't ne shown to the jury in 2005 (reference Ron Zonen's closing argument) just answer one question why would a STRAIGHT man sleep with boys, have gay books and have 3 other strains of male DNA on his mattress pad? It's a reasonable question. I and many other of the readers of this blog are open to all sorts of discussion as long as it is backed up with facts and evidence. So what's the answer? I think you don't have one because you don't know. Straight men don't let other men jack off in their beds, sure they might lend their bed to a mate but I'm pretty sure female secretions would be found also. Try looking for the female secretions in MJ's bed. Good luck with that!
Desiree
What a dickhead really please continue to publish that crap it is very entertaining toying with someone with the intellect of a gnat. Just wanted to ask how you found out about the semen stains on the nudist books? I often wondered which ones of his books he "liked" the most. I'm guessing it wasn't Playboy or Hustler, more like the weird nudist mags and the homoerotic stuff.
Dyhard123,
I was responding to Desiree's comment, stating fans on other sites believe the semen was planted. However, your comment about the semen being there because people went into Michael's bedroom when he wasn't there made me laugh even harder. I have heard other rabid fans say the same thing, and usually Frank Cascio is blamed, despite there were no female secretions on Michael's mattress, sheets, and underwear.
I always say denial is a curious emotion because it causes people to cling to things that don't make any sense. Given Michael's history of paranoia, i.e., locks on his bedroom door, alarm system alerting him when people were coming, along with his sleepovers with little boys, semen-soaked underwear stored with his, cocaine found in his blood stained-underwear, his own semen found along with other males. Please. If you can't see the obvious, then I feel sorry for you. Doesn't it make you curious to know why Katherine Jackson wanted certain items in the storage unit destroyed and may have had thugs beat up a man in order to get Michael's diaries in her possession? Let's face it. Katherine doesn't want anything to hurt her source of income.
If you ever read the legal documents and realized Michael had little-boy problems, I think your mind would snap. At the very least, it would mean finding yourself another celebrity to fantasize about when you masturbate.
Someone mentioned that Jackson got away because he was a celebrity and that the kid's mother was a wacko and ruined the whole case. But I would have to disagree. If you read the cross examinations of these witnesses and see how they were all caught in so many lies and misstatements, you will understand why the jury came back with a not guilty verdict, but acquittal doesn't necessarily mean innocent. It just means that prosecutors did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
That trial was a circus to say the least.
But anyway, in reference to Desiree's blog, I'm not surprised at all by this. I always had a feeling MJ was gay or bisexual. I never felt he was 100% straight. But the question is, who does the semen belong to?
Lucky Charm:
Lies is a stretch so far as we know. Maybe they did lie or maybe Janet Arvizo was severely mentally unbalanced, got nervous on the stand, and could not withstand Tom Mesereau's questioning. One of the prosecution witnesses did say the Jacko people were intending to make her look like a crack whore.
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2005/03/03/2005-03-03_team_jacko_nasty_boys__but_d.html
Perhaps, in theory, the jury did the right thing in acquitting Michael Jackson. But it would be a mistake to think that with all of Mesereau's insistences that he was a 'musical genius' and a 'humanitarian' (fair-weather), it didn't rub off on the jury.
I happen to believe that there were strong Michael Jackson fans on that jury. From being in the MJ fan community--and now from the observation standpoint since I am no longer a fan of his--even people who say they were 'casual fans' or 'admirers' will be rabid fans in a foxhole.
Michael shouldn't have been acquitted based on the breadth of 1108 evidence against him. From reading the transcripts, it is obvious and unequivocal that he was a pedophile and molested boys. In truth, we cannot ascertain whether or not the Arvizos were lying. I personally am at a stasis in belief.
But Michael was a child molester, and should have been put in jail. But the DA was out of his league in 2005. He wanted to put Michael behind bars in 1994 and was stymied by the payoff to the Chandlers. When he got the chance in 2005, he never realized the power and status he was going against.
As Star Arvizo said, 'celebrities have a pre-established credibility that no one can falter.'
Whether it was a scam, as Chris Tucker made you believe, or whether they were victims is beyond the point. Evan Chandler tried to go against the Jacko machine and lost his life, even though his son was a victim.
Michael Jackson, like OJ--and, yes, they are the same breed of animal--would have never been convicted in this country (curiously enough Johnnie Cochran got them both off). He's too big. To say celebrity was NEVER a factor in the jurors' decision--and that they were upstanding enough to not think about his celebrity--is woefully naive.
Yes, the trial was a circus! Again, because of his defense team.
As for the semen on Michael's bed, I could bet my life that Omer Bhatti was the depositor of one of the samples. Until at least January 2009, Michael Jackson was still having sexual contact with young men like Omer.
http://x17online.com/celebrities/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_michael_jacksons_cousin-01212009.php
Michael Jackson may have wanted to be white and bleached his skin causing vitiligo but his DNA was always black. Therefore, the insistence of the young Australian man in the above story that he's Michael's 'cousin' is a farce and a coverup. He was spending Michael's money, anyhow, much like a lover. No doubt in my mind, given the lie of relation, that he was another sex partner. I wish they could've analyzed Michael mattress from Holmby Hills. I bet there would be 'goodies'.
He was a gay pedophile but perhaps he decided to supplant young LEGAL men for the boys. But Omer and this guy were still very small in stature.
Amendment:
I did some researching around and found out this boy is from a family in South Africa that Michael was friends with dating back to at least the 1990s. His name is Darren Brett Cohen, one of three boys.
Maybe Jacko wasn't screwing him after all! Or maybe this guy, like Omer, Brett, and Jimmy, got to still be 'special friends' with Michael when they were older. I think Darren was 6 in the 1990s when Michael was going to South Africa.
Who knows the relationship but if the use of 'cousin' to describe previous 'special friends' like Brett Barnes is any indication, he could indeed be a special friend.
Who knows? I was surprised to see him, though, with another young male. I think he was a lover. Too much of a pattern. But I'm honest enough to say I could be wrong.
@Desiree
I wouldn't put my money on the Arvizo case. Those people had more baggage then an old lady at a train station. I'd rather focus on the 1993 cases because that's where I think the prosecution had credibility. As for the 1108 evidence that you mentioned, I think it was pretty strong but only to a certain extent. With the exemption of June Chandler and Jason Francia, I think the other 1108 witnesses were a complete disaster. The prosecution had a bunch of former neverland employees get on the stand and say that they saw Michael Jackson molesting boys, but their credibilities were totally compromised by their motives and actions. They all claimed to have seen a grown man molesting a child--yet not one of them ever called the police, tried to stop what they saw, and only said what they saw when a tabloid came flashing big bucks. And this does not sit too well with a jury full of parents..I think Jackson would have definietly been convicted if Jordie Chandler had testified, but then again, the defense would have most likely rebutted by putting Jackson himself on the stand, and with no physical evidence, it would all come down to who the jury would have believed. That's the thing with child molestation. It's one of the hardest cases to prove. Unlike a murder case, you have the weapon, the body, the autopsy report, etc..But with child molestation, if there's no physical evidence, everything is based on the credibility of the child, and if the child lacks credibility, then the person being accused will go scott free.
Lucky Charm:
The Neverland employees are believable in my opinion. Maybe only in a court of law can credibility be degraded by reporting something to the 'tabloids', which, by the way, are right A LOT. They get bashed as 'rags' because celebrities have a pre-established credibility with the public and often a general denial from a PR man is enough to quell scrutiny.
Many of the employees stated pretty simply that they thought they wouldn't be believed. And it's reasonable. Imagine someone going into a police station and saying Michael Jackson--the biggest celebrity in the world--was molesting boys. Many people wouldn't believe it. We can't judge people if we weren't in their shoes. You never know how you'd respond in that situation.
Ralph Chacon testified that he saw Michael kiss down the stomach and suck the penis of a boy with long dark hair and tanned skin to the grand jury in 1994 while he was still working for Michael. In 2005 he stated he didn't know who the boy was but assumed it was Jordie. However, back in 1994, Chacon and DAs wondered whether it was Brett Barnes because he fit this description but was often confused with Jordie because they were said to look similar enough to be confused with each other. Knowing this, Sneddon, Lauren Weis, and another deputy DA from LA county flew to Australia to question Brett.
They told his mother about the situation and she was said to have gotten really quiet and put her head down. Her husband looked visibly angry with her. I think a few weeks later they stated Brett would not be allowed to cooperate in the investigation.
See, Chacon testified to the grand jury before he sold stories and before he was fired; not to mention he took two polygraph tests and passed them.
I think he's solid and I, of course, believe him. Tabloids mean nothing to me. The Lemarques and the Quindoys were called liars by the Defense team and yet they had stories dating back to 1991. They both wanted to make money before the Jordie scandal when no one was calling Michael a pedophile, but loving this guy's music and dancing.
Blanca Francia also was questioned before going to Hard Copy on someone else's advice.
Read the document linked in this post (as well as the post itself):
http://desireespeakssolisten.blogspot.com/2010/11/little-known-witnesses-is-everyone-liar.html
It'll tell you about other people who didn't go to the tabloids--as if that really matters--that saw Michael being inappropriate with young boys.
If Jordie Chandler got on the stand, Michael would have been put in jail. Period. No defense attorney in the world would have put Michael on the stand, a man who lied about his children's origins and his plastic surgery, not to mention a junkie. It would be a slaughtering because he's a liar and a child molester. He didn't even want to be deposed in 1993 because he would've burned and exposed himself as a criminal.
All of that crap Tom Mesereau was talking about Michael going to be put on stand was a load of bull. As was his after-the-fact assertion he had rebuttal witnesses to Jordie Chandler. Total liar, as what is typical of a defense attorney. He never had anyone because if he did, he would've brought them on. No doubt in my mind. It would be the logical choice given a whole bunch of people testified to having witnessed molestations of Jordie, not to mention June Chandler's entire testimony. Having a rebuttal to them would've done wonders for their case.
Michael was acquitted because the DAs case was bad, meaning the Arvizos had pesky 'credibility' issues, not because he was 'vindicated'. Absolutely not.
@Desiree
I don't believe those former employees told those stories to the grand jury in 1994 because otherwise they would have most certainly handed down an indictment. And That security guard Ralph Chacon you're referring to admitted during his cross exam that when he appeared infront of the grand jury, he didn't mention that oral sex incident:
MESEARU: Okay. By the way, when you went to the
Santa Barbara Grand Jury, you didn’t tell them everything you said today, did you?
CHACON: Yes, sir.
MESAERU: Everything?
CHACON: Yes, sir.
MESAERU: Did you tell them everything you’ve told Mr. Sneddon?
CHACON: Well, that one incident that I recalled I
didn’t. I didn’t bring that up, no, sir.
Ralph Chacon claimed he witnessed Jackson molesting Jordie Chandler in late 1992 and early 1993, but according to Chandler, molestation did not occur until May 1993, totally contradicting Chacon's testimony. And I cannot imagine anyone wanting to work for a man who they claimed to have seen perform oral sex on a young boy. There was also another security guard name Kassim Abdool who claimed he brought vaseline to a naked and sweaty Michael Jackson and that when he looked in the bedroom, he saw a boy who he thought was Jordie Chandler, but when you read Chandler's interviews and statements, he never mentions anything about vaseline or anal sex, totally contradicting Abdool's story. There was also a chef who claimed that he saw Macaulay Culkin getting molested, but I find his story a little odd. He claimed he saw the boy getting groped when he was delivering french fries that Michael Jackson had just ordered. Are we suppose to believe that MJ chose to molest Culkin during a time he knew food was on the way? If a person was planning on committing a rape in a hotel, would they do it shortly after ordering room service? lmao
As for the excuse that they didn't go to the police because they feared they wouldn't be believed is understandable, but there are also many other options. They could have jumped in and saved the child, or called the kid's parents. If they had seen a their own kids getting abused, would they just stand there and watch? As I said, these former employees in my opinion were a complete disaster for the prosecution. They should have just stuck with June Chandler and Jason Francia because they were the only ones who were credible. They didn't have so much baggage.
The grand juries in 1994 were investigating grand juries, NOT indicting grand juries. That is the big scam in the Michael Jackson fan communities. If they had been indicting grand juries, Michael would've been indicted.
First of all, Ralph Chacon saw Michael giving oral sex to Brett Barnes in 1992, not Jordie Chandler. Did I not make that clear in the other comment? He only confused the two. Even back then, they knew it was Brett Barnes and flew to Australia accordingly. Why they didn't correct him on the stand is a mystery to me. But 'long straight dark hair' does NOT fit Jordie Chandler's description. That is Brett.
Significantly, he told this story to authorities and investigators while still under Michael Jackson's employ. He didn't sell it after he was fired.
As for Lemarque, the chef, he said he used a side door to the arcade room to bring the fires and that's when he saw it. He freaked and reentered in the proper door, making sure he made lots and lots of noise. When he talked to a judge friend of his about whether there was anything he could do in terms of reporting it, the friend told him it would be a he said/he said. Basically no one would believe him if he didn't have the child's testimony.
As for Kassim Abdool, I believe he saw Brett Barnes as well. And regarding Brett Barnes, Jordie said Michael told him he put Vaseline on Brett's anus because he'd bleed when going to the bathroom, which is a bullshit lie. He was having anal sex with Brett. No other reason as to why the guy would keep sleeping with Michael until he was 19. They were having sex with each other.
As usual, your information is incorrect.
Again, you judge them for not acting--I can't understand it either--but it happens. Of course if it were their children they would 'break it up'. But it wasn't their kids, there's the believability factor, and most of these boys liked it.
And that's the problem. The boys enjoyed sexual contact with Michael Jackson. He wasn't some trench coat-wearing, shifty-eyed molester who attacked children in park bathrooms; he was the guy who made Thriller, was the most popular celebrity in the world, and could moonwalk. If Michael Jackson wanted to fondle them--give them 'pleasure' as a 'friend'--it wouldn't be hard to say 'Okay, Michael.'
All of the former Neverland employees may have had credibility issues in terms of a court of law and may have not 'survived' cross-examination. However, I believe their claims and, for Chacon, the Lemarques, and Blanca Francia at the very least, I know they were telling the truth.
Going to a tabloid or taking money for an interview may be bad advice but it does NOT mean someone is lying about their story. And there were many others who had stories about Michael Jackson and boys.
I find it odd, Lucky Charm, that you are typing under a different name when I know for certain you are "Pauline" who claimed to be from "the city Sneddon bankrupted"; remember, I have my ways of knowing... Isn't that just a little crazy? Or did you want to avoid that previous scrutiny?
I can debate this all day but you clearly have not done enough reading and reading between the lines. This is typical of Michael Jackson fans, as is the strawmans, the ad Hominem attacks, and the faulty logic.
Please, and I don't want to say this again: selling stories to the tabloids does not mean you are guilty of anything beyond bad judgment. Only in a deluded fan brain can going to a tabloid equal a liar. That is just NOT reality. Prove to me they are liars, Pauline; there isn't even enough circumstantial evidence to prove they are liars, perhaps only that they are stupid and/or greedy.
Why don't you just admit you think he's innocent so we can be done with all of this rigamarole. It's really ridiculous to me...
The Gods were certainly smiling at MJ on 13 June 2005, imo he was as guilty as sin, but the DA didn't prove his case. That coupled with the mother of the accuser acting like a nutjob on the stand. Not to mention their dubious past the Arvizo's were not overly credible. That doesn't mean that Gavin lied. I think people forget that when Gavin first met Mj he was 10 years old and very seriously sick, I have a daughter who is nearly 10 and in excellent health, she can't remember what she had for breakfast or where she has left her sneakers, let along dates and times or who said what when. In 2005 these kids were remembering things that happenened 2 to 3 years earlier and in some cases 5 years earlier in 2000. Star is actually younger so obviously his recollection would be a little shakier.As I said before it doesn't mean that MJ didn't fondle that little boy. If anyone has seen the police video of their interview with Gavin it is very telling. it is available on you tube. It was shown in court during Ron Zonen's closing arguments. I have spoken to someone in court that day who said that it didn't go well for MJ, it really made him look bad. Look at the comparisons, Gavin's likeness to Jordan Chandler is astonishing, he comes from a broken and dysfunctional family, mother kept at arms length, MJ always trying to keep Gavin to himself, ie not wanting Star in the bedroom. The masturbation talk, even that masturbation is "natural" and the fact that MJ wanted to show Gavin and also Jordy "how to do it". All a bit familiar. Reference this back to his telephone conversation with Terry George and bingo more masturbation talk, he even asked Terry if he used "cream" when he did it! Perhaps that was the function of the vaseline, it was everywhere at Neverland, in all the bathroom! I do subscribe to the fact that all young boys/men talk about and masturbate so maybe MJ used this as some form of common ground, I also think that it was his only form of sexual stimulation as he probably did not enjoy a very fruitful physical relationship with anyone (especially not his wives) other than these special friends. If the Arvizos are the grifters that they are portrayed to be where is the big 60 minute special with Diane Sawyer or Oprah? The british tabloids would still pay 6 figures for an interview yet they have never spoken to the media at all. Which is more that can be said fof the Chandlers, who have spoken to the media and been instrumental in some books about the case. Yet we all tend to believe Jordan but not Gavin. I will email Desiree some links I have found regarding Gavin and his post trial life shortly as she may be able to use them in one of her posts. One thing I can tell you, and I have this from someone that has regular contact with Gavin is that he NEVER recanted his story after MJ died and that he is constantly heckled by MJ's rabid fans but he sucks it up and gets on with his life. He was a brave young man to take MJ on his life will never be the same. Do you see a grifter anywhere around?
Desiree and Sarah, I so agree with you. Thank you very much for your insightful posts.
People is so fooled by Michael excuses that they end up discussing the ramifications of his actions and never question the roots. First off, why was Michael having the Arvizos at Neverland? If he wanted to help Gavin with the treatment, he didn't need to have him at Neverland, much less sleep with him. Why not simply pay the hospital bills? Why a sane man would behave like that to start with?
Also, after the 93 accusations, every special friend was labeled as a victim. Why put the children in this difficult position? Only his fans buy his stupid rhetoric about love and children and his fake altruism.
I remember watching the BAshir documentary at the time and MJ and Gavin look like lovers. There is more footage on YT of them walking at Neverland and it is creepy. This man was disgusting.
Sarah,
Is it possible for you to post the links here? I was told Gavin Arvizo was molested, but truthfully, I have always swayed back and forth. The "mouthpiece" only briefly mentioned Gavin but was more interested in going into great detail about Grace Rwaramba. I have always said since everything I have been told has been proven true, so far, I'll say Michael did molest Gavin. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.
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