my book collection.
(not shown: all Vanity Fair back issues featuring Maureen Orth's articles and a vintage biography given to me by a friend)
As you can see above, I've got two...
There seems to be a lot of confusion in the fan community about this extremely rare and controversial book.
For example, here and here on my favorite pro-Michael's innocence fan site, Vindicate MJ.
For example, here and here on my favorite pro-Michael's innocence fan site, Vindicate MJ.
I've read Victor Gutierrez's book Michael Jackson Was My Lover: The Secret Diary of Jordie Chandler and have referenced it numerous times here on the blog because, for a completely holistic understanding of Michael Jackson's child molestation cases, it is imperative to know as much as you can.
However, I am an anomaly; most fans, certainly not all, have not read Gutierrez's book and have no clue as to its content. Most of them believe Michael Jackson Was My Lover was merely ghost-written by Evan Chandler and credited to Victor Gutierrez so he could get around the confidentiality agreement.
The fan thought process regarding the exposé is this: Evan Chandler wrote the book and, by writing the book, he proved that all of Jordie's accusations of molestation against Michael were false. Why are the accusations moot? Because no father of a son who had truly been molested would ever write a book detailing his child's molestation!
Well, that was my belief when I first read the book. I had believed all of the PR; honestly, I probably didn't know as much about his trials and tribulations with boys as I thought I did. Upon first reading, I was totally convinced of Michael's innocence. However, that belief and the belief of fans who respond in a knee-jerk fashion to Michael Jackson Was My Lover was wrong.
Dead wrong.
For the sake of clarification, I'll address some important points about Victor Gutierrez's book:
(i) The goal of Michael Jackson Was My Lover was to present the 1993 case with a pedophilic, 'man-boy love story' twist.
Possibly a fanfiction?
When I say the above, I do not at all mean Gutierrez's book is inaccurate or fictional; on the contrary, it is quite accurate and very factual. But the goal of MJWML is quite clear: Gutierrez, regardless of whatever his intentions were when he began his investigations, set out to sensationalize the Jordie Chandler case in the most lurid way imaginable.
On page 10, he reveals his intentions:
The events of this investigation have unfolded like a melodramatic spy novel: death threats, suicide attempts, extortion, divorce, firings, betrayal, love, sex and perversion.
For the Los Angeles authorities that investigated Jackson, there's no doubt about the guilt of the singer. Michael Jackson is a pedophile, which in the eyes of society makes him a "criminal". Not so for the young sexual companions to the singer, for whom sex with Jackson was, in their own words, "healthy" and "normal".... For me it was confusing, not knowing whether to refer to the boys as victims or ex-lovers.
I leave you with the evidence, which was neither edited nor censored. It is a tale of dreams and sexual games between the King of Pop and his young lovers. I ask only that you read with an open mind; you will need it.Near the consummation of the book, on page 201, Gutierrez reiterates:
Jackson loved Jordie. The King of Pop had had sexual relations with many children, but Jordie was special. Jordie was his lover, his companion. He desired him physically and couldn't be separated from him. He was his top priority, his life, the only person he wanted close to him. That's why he told Jordie, "I've never gone so far sexually with a boy as I have with you."(1) Jordie felt the same. He was attracted to his friend, his idol, and loss his virginity, so to speak, with him. He enjoyed sex with his friend. He received his friend's attention, care and gifts.The point was to paint Michael and Jordie Chandler's friendship as romantic and the alleged molestation as consensual sexual contact. Some of this sexual contact is displayed in the book in graphic detail, to the point the piece becomes pornographic.
While searching for information on MJWML, I found the following GQ magazine scan, which provides further evidence that Gutierrez's objective was to turn the 1993 case into a pedophilic love story.
The article, dated to September 2006, details a tentative then-plan to make a movie with a production company called World of Wonder based on the book, 'Jordie's movie' as one of the producers stated. The most important aspect of the film would be to present Jordie as never having been a victim and that he was betrayed by his parents who had not merely destroyed a 'friendship' through alleged avarice but the burgeoning sexual connection Jordie had had with Michael.
(click for bigger)
In his final chapter, 'Jackson and Pedophilia', Gutierrez cites the pedophile organization NAMBLA (he also thanks them in his Author's Notes at the end of the book and includes a scan of one of their newsletters that featured a picture of Michael giving the camera a 'knowing' look while his arms are around a young boy's shoulders). According to him, members of the group believed Michael was 'one of them', not only because of the Jordie Chandler case, but also because of Michael's behavior with young boys years before the 1993 scandal.
To these pedophiles, Michael's behavior--the amusement park-like 'boy trap' Neverland, with it's candy, games, rides, and 'Pleasure Island'-like rules (nod to Pinocchio if you are unaware), his endless stream of 'special friends', and sleepovers--belied his protestations of normal sexuality. To them, Michael could live the dreams of any pedophile because he had the luxury of money and celebrity status.
His behavior and the 1993 scandal, coupled with his popularity and talent, could have been the vehicle to get society to become more lax in their penalties towards pedophilia, the organization believed.
Most importantly, however, was the final paragraph, which is the entire book's premise (sans the investigation aspects). From page 213:
Pedophiles fall in love, they become obsessed and feel desire, just like a heterosexual or homosexual persons. In most cases the relations between "couples" don't last for long, since when the child grows, the pedophile loses interest, at least in sexual terms. Now that we better understand the sexual drive some adults feel for children we are able to comprehend more completely Jordie and Jackson's experience, a couple that loved intensely in a very erotic way.It makes you wonder whether Gutierrez could have possibly been appealing to the NAMBLA base in his book, knowing his objectives; of course that is only speculation...
There was a reason Gutierrez titled Michael Jackson Was My Lover as he did. In Gutierrez's mind, 1. Michael Jackson and Jordie Chandler were lovers; and 2. all of Michael's alleged liaisons with boys were a part of the consensual and mutually stimulating relationship between man and boy.
Victor Gutierrez's point was that although Michael had molested Jordie (and he provides the investigative research to back up this claim), it is society that views their alleged sexual encounters as wrong. In sum, Jordie enjoyed it.(2)
(ii) Michael Jackson Was My Lover was NOT written by Evan Chandler.
Given the above excerpts and the total explanation of point (i), it should be enough to figure out Michael Jackson Was My Lover was a book totally of Victor Gutierrez's own invention. The point is why would a father, whether you believe Jordie Chandler or not, write a book in which his son and his son's alleged abuser have a sexual kinship?
To 'embarrass' Michael Jackson? If Evan Chandler was to author a book for the simple purpose of embarrassing Michael Jackson over his alleged pedophilia, he would not have made it somewhat of a 'love story'.
Nor would he have said all Michael's alleged sexual contact with other boys was mutually pleasurable, that molestations by law were never molestations! No, that would not happen.
To just briefly reiterate this point, would a father, especially one who claimed his son was sexually abused by Michael Jackson, 'ghostwrite' this, from page 121:
At 9 AM, Jordie was being interviewed alone by Dr. Abrams. The session lasted more than three hours. Jordie told the doctor about how much fun he had with Jackson, and that he did not feel abused since he had of his own free will participated in all their sexual relations. He said that on many occasions, he initiated the sex himself.Or, how about this, from page 112:
In a way to rebel against what was happening, Jordie decided to keep wearing the Calvin Klein underwear that were Jackson's favorite. The underwear was size 34, very large for the skinny boy. Jackson asked him to wear that size so that his genitals would hang down, and Jackson could see them through the spaces. And other garment that Jackson likes to see his friend wear were his blue gym shorts with the school logo from Saint Matthew school. The shorts had "Jordan Chandler" printed on the left leg, next to the school logo. They were also among Jackson's favorite to take off.Certainly nothing a father would write about his son!
However, point (i) and the above examples are not the most obvious.
Victor Gutierrez, as I said earlier, billed the book as a pedophilic love story that ended because the parents of the boy 'in love' extorted money from Michael, using the 'love affair' as blackmail.
That leads to the question: why would Evan Chandler ghostwrite a book portraying himself as a greedy, evil (evil because he broke up love) extortionist, especially when he had been accused of extortion by the Jackson side?
Why would he write a book after agreeing to a very strict confidentiality agreement under the settlement terms?
Simple: he wouldn't.
No intelligent person--and Evan Chandler was very intelligent--would write a book making themselves look suspicious. No one would write a book so soon after a settlement, especially one detailing the case from their side and calling someone a pedophile. No one would do that!
This book--first published in Santiago, Chile in the Spanish language under the title Michael Jackson Fue Mi Amante: El Diario Secreto de Jordie Chandler--was written by Victor M. Gutierrez, a freelance writer and Chilean native, not Evan Chandler. I don't know if I can stress this enough, especially given point (i). The only recommendation I can give to naysayers is to read the book themselves. You will be thoroughly convinced!(3)
(iii) Michael Jackson Was My Lover is NOT Jordie Chandler's diary.
Gutierrez claimed it was Jordie's diary that was the centerpiece of his book. In his introduction on page 9, he writes:
When Michael Jackson paid 20 million dollars to Jordie Christopher Chandler, the 13 year old minor who accused Jackson of sexually abusing him, the agreement was that neither the accused and nor the victim would reveal the intimate details of their sexual relations. Jordie, now 16 years old, had kept a diary with all the details of their friendship, including the sexual ones. When Jackson learned of the existence of the diary, he decided to pay Jordie off in order to keep the diary out of the hands of the police. Nevertheless, the diary became the pillar of my investigation. Together with information obtained from numerous interviews, it is presented within this book. Jackson and Jordie know that when you read the following chapters you'll know about their most intimate sexual relations and games, in full detail.On page 187, Gutierrez mentions the diary again:
Then on Monday, May 9th [1994], I presented to the world excerpts from Jordie's diary as a precursor to my book. The presentation included photographs of Jackson dressed in pajamas in jordies room. I also included Jordie's suicide note and other things of interest. I never expected that the Santa Barbara and LA District attorneys and detectives would react with surprise. I thought that Jordie had told them everything, and that they had seen the photos. The district attorneys contacted Larry Feldman, and demanded Jordie's entire diary, however, Feldman refused to turn over the evidence.
I received calls from colleagues who heard that the DA said that if I didn't give them the diary and the photos, they would force me to do so legally. How did the photos and diary come into my possession asked the detectives and Jackson's lawyers? Jackson's lawyers were bothered, since Jackson had paid $20 million in exchange for the boy's silence. Jackson's people were concerned they had paid for nothing, since the truth would be known through this book.The book as a whole is nothing more than an investigative piece, and, although thoroughly researched, I highly doubt Victor Gutierrez ever saw a diary, let alone had unfettered access to Jordie's!
I truly suspect Gutierrez only brought up a diary to sell units or pique interest in his project.
Originally, I assumed if there had ever been a diary in existence, the police would have most likely confiscated it as evidence. However, Gutierrez, as quoted in the excerpt above, claims the diary had been in Larry Feldman's possession and the police had no access to it due to his refusal to turn it over. (This would be consistent with Feldman's behavior after the settlement.)
So, I do not know for sure if Jordie ever had a diary. If he had kept one (and Victor shows a picture of a file cabinet where the alleged diary was held), it would either be too much of a paper trail if an actual extortion had taken place, or it would be explosive proof of sexual abuse, enough to garner a settlement in the hundreds of millions.
However, I just find the possibility dubious.
Gutierrez uses quotes allegedly from Jordie throughout the book, but some of these quotes are written in a similar style to the book itself. For example, why would Jordie, in a conversation, ever refer to Michael as 'Jackson'?
Many quotes from Jordie are from the declaration Jordie gave to Feldman, other interviews given by Jordie, or other interviews or depositions given by alleged eyewitnesses, simply embellished to make for good prose.
For example, the chapter 'Privacy in Monaco', is directly linked to court documents (and Evan's chronology of events) of sexual molestation occurring during the World Music Awards trip but written in graphic detail as a long, first-person quote from a 'diary'. There is a possibility Gutierrez could have extrapolated the alleged incidents of abuse using poetic license.
I don't need to go into any more examples, but, trust me when I say some of it is fantasy fiction to make the timeline of events more enjoyable to read.
More accurately, however, is that Gutierrez probably set up his book (which has events marked by days and weeks) similarly to the chronology, which he cites as a 'chronology', not a diary, when he directly quotes from the document. I believe that is where much of the confusion lies: Victor's 'diary' is most likely based on the chronology Evan and Jordie made for their lawyers (although Gutierrez makes a clear distinction between a quote from the chronology and a quote from this nebulous 'diary', which probably doesn't exist).
In accordance with point (i), Gutierrez's use of a 'diary' to sell units of a book that paints the Michael/Jordie relationship as non-predatory, please see ((2)) at the bottom of the entry. I think that, along with the basic premise of making a product attractive to consumers, is the real reason he subtitled the book The Secret Diary of Jordie Chandler.
Because it isn't...
(iv) Michael Jackson Was My Lover was tediously researched.
Regardless of what anyone reading this blog entry believes about Victor Gutierrez so far, MJWML is a startlingly well-researched and minutely detailed book about the Jordie Chandler allegations.
That point should not be understated. The book is a fabulous source of information(4).
Gutierrez claims he began researching Michael Jackson's penchant for boys a few years before the allegations ever became reality and had already discovered Michael had been a pedophile. Of course, none of that can be verified but the book is an obvious result of tedious inquiry into Michael Jackson's life and alleged boy habits.
According to page 444 of Maureen Orth's article "Losing His Grip", she claims sources she interviewed who were close to the prosecution said Gutierrez's book is 'essentially accurate'. In terms of the investigative aspect of the book alone (disregarding the bits about Jordie's alleged 'diary'), the book is too detailed and too meticulously chronicled (days and months are given) to lack merit.
But what makes Gutierrez's book invaluable is the seemingly unfettered access he had to documents and pictures which were scanned and inserted into the middle of the book. If one ever doubted his journalistic thoroughness, they'd be mistaken.
As I have shown from some pictures I've taken of the book here on this blog (so many more have yet to be taken), many of the documents in MJWML are from the side of the Chandlers, a side totally underscored because most of the attention is focused upon 'vindicating Michael'.
But it is these documents that are the most damning evidence against Michael's protestations of innocence! These include a letter written by Evan Chandler to Barry Rothman; a typed letter by Evan after he'd been accused of extortion by Pellicano; Evan's notes; official rape center reports; and a picture of Michael Jackson in pajamas while in Jordie's bedroom.
Let us not forget the rare photocopy of Jordie's description of Michael's genitalia and details of Brett Barnes' anatomy given to his lawyers that I have already revealed here on this blog. Or the odd list of wishes Michael allegedly told Jordie to repeat 'three times a day'. From page 77:
1. No wenches, bitches, heifers, or hoes.
2. Never give up your "bliss" (sex acts)
3. Live with me in Neverland forever.
4. No conditioning.
5. Never grow up.
6. Be better than best friends forever (lovers)(5)Most important is several pages of Evan Chandler's typed chronology surrounding his son's molestation, which show the process of Evan and Jordie trying to remember everything that had happened.(6)
Again, to reiterate: it is the documents inside of Gutierrez's book, especially those during the negotiations, that make Michael Jackson seem guiltier than he had led us to believe. Remember, these documents are merely scans of documents during the goings-on of the 1993 case, nothing created by Gutierrez himself.
Outside of the 1993 case, which makes up a bulk of the book, MJWML contains numerous interviews with various Jackson employees, whether you decide to believe them or not.(7) For example, Orietta Murdock's anecdote about Michael not liking blacks and her eventually filing a complaint against him with the EEOC of California (Gutierrez even cites the case number). Another example, a story of rocks being pelted at the lion of Michael's Neverland Zoo, which can be cross-referenced with Wade Robson's testimony on the stand (although Wade said the whole thing was practically innocent).
Of course, the veracity of some of the interviews cannot be ascertained, such as a truly odd alleged interview with Joy Robson. Nevertheless, the value of MJWML is that these interviews were done, many of the individuals being named, something lacking in Michael Jackson books.
(v) The truthfulness of Michael Jackson Was My Lover was never challenged in a court of law.
It is well known by many of Michael's fans that Victor Gutierrez was successfully sued after Michael filed a slander lawsuit against him.
However, it should be noted that the lawsuit had nothing to do with the accuracy of MJWML. It had to do with an alleged 27-minute video Gutierrez claimed to witness that allegedly showed Michael Jackson engaged in a sex act with an adolescent boy.
A newspaper scan from the January 9, 1995 edition of the Herald-Journal shows the story:
Weeks later, they [Jeremy and Jourdynn Maldanado Jackson] were still talking about the fun they had with their uncle [Michael] when I received a telephone call from a writer named Ruth Robinson. I had known Ruth for quite a while and respected her integrity. It made what she had to tell me all the more difficult to hear. "I wanted to warn you, Margaret," she said. "There's a story going around that there is a videotape of Michael molesting one of your sons, and that you have the tape."
If anyone else had said those words, I would have hung up the phone. Given the long relationship I had with Ruth, however, I gave her the courtesy of a response. I told her that it wasn't true, of course, and that I wanted this story stopped in its tracks.
She had been in contact with someone who works at the National Enquirer who had alerted her that a story was being written for that paper. Ruth cross-connected me with the woman, and I vehemently denied the story. Moreover, I told her that if the story ran, I would own the National Enquirer before the lawsuits I brought were finished. To its credit, the National Enquirer never ran the piece.
"Hard Copy," however, decided it would. "Hard Copy" correspondent Diane Dimond had reported that authorities were reopening the child molestation case against Michael. She had also made the allegations on LA radio station KABC-AM on a morning talk show hosted by Roger Barkley and Ken Minyard.
Dimond's claims were based on the word of a freelance writer named Victor Gutierrez. The story was an outrageous lie. No one part of it was true. I'd never met the man. There was no tape. Michael never paid me for my silence. He had never molested Jeremy. Period.Other newspapers detail the entire case in print so I will paste them below in a rough chronology. Click all screenshots for larger resolution.
From the January 11, 1995 edition of the Sun Journal and the January 13, 1995 edition of The Sunday Gazette, respectively:
The January 13, 1995 edition of the Sarasota Herald-Tribune:
Apparently, Michael's $100 million lawsuit only involved the allegation of a sex tape and the allegedly slanderous reports from media outlets (he targeted Diane Dimond and Hard Copy, in particular) of an investigation being reopened concerning more child molestations.
According to the June 6, 1996 edition of the Ocala Star-Banner and later the September 8, 1996 edition of The News, Victor Gutierrez, having lost his journalistic rights to keep a source confidential, was ordered to reveal the individual who allegedly knew of the tape or of where it was. Gutierrez later refused to reveal his source, kicking off Michael's slander suit against him:
On October 28, 1997, the Lodi-News Sentinel reported Michael's lawsuit against Hard Copy and Diane Dimond had been dropped (although I am not entirely sure why, I believe it had something to do with Diane and Hard Copy being protected under California's Shield Law; Gutierrez was directly their source and they were only repeating information from the source, who was 'sketchy').
The portion of the lawsuit against Gutierrez, however, stood. Gutierrez then filed bankruptcy, protecting his assets from seizure by any creditors, including any company or persons who may file a monetary claim against him. That encompassed Michael Jackson.
Eventually, reports the Reading Eagle on April 10, 1998, Michael won a $2.7 million against Victor Gutierrez. Michael's attorney, Zia Modabber, stated the jurors for the civil trial wanted to 'send a message' through their decision that tabloids had to be stopped, or something like that:
Of course, it is doubtful, if, indeed, Jeremy Maldonado was the boy Victor claimed to have seen with Michael on a tape since Margaret had been so emphatic over the rumor being absolutely false. On page 29-30 in the chapter 'Jackson Prefers Boys', he even mentions Jeremy:
While Jackson often makes public appearances would show him kissing babies, girls and stepchildren, these are a part of his publicity campaign. The way he treats his own nieces and nephews that is illustrative. He doesn't dedicate the time and attention to them the way he does his "friends." He only spends time with one of his nephews, eight year old Jeremy Maldonado, the biracial son of his brother Jermaine, and his wife Margaret, who is of Mexican origin. Jackson approves of this nephew for two reasons: his mixed-race appearance and his age. His other nieces and nephews are younger than seven or older than thirteen, and black.What is unavoidable is that this whole case--and Gutierrez losing it, even if it was because he was obstinate about revealing a confidential source--seems to make Victor Gutierrez look totally untrustworthy.
The reality is Gutierrez did most likely lie about seeing a tape because he had a book to sell: Michael Jackson Was My Lover. Controversy seems to draw interest, no? However, Michael Jackson never sued Gutierrez over the accuracy of his book, even though Gutierrez challenged him to do so. The book, given the above analysis, could be seen as even more slanderous, seeing that Gutierrez so carefully detailed Michael's alleged pedophilia and string of young boy lovers.
If I were to do as so many fans do and try to know what was going through Michael's head, his refusal to challenge Gutierrez's book (but, instead, buying out all of the copies of MJWML in bookstores(8)) is simply based in Michael's fear of being questioned about anything pertaining to the alleged molestation of Jordie Chandler. Let's remember his body language when asked about the boy in the following video dubbed 'Video Nasty' by the UK's News of the World:
Fluttering eyes and hard swallowing, Michael Jackson was visibly terrified...(9)
So, what have we learned about Victor Gutierrez and his exposé Michael Jackson Was My Lover?
You know, the goal of this blog entry is not so much to review or reveal the contents of this scarce and expensive book. My point was to defend its use in my Michael Jackson blog posts.
Whether fans want to take Gutierrez's sins and make him look like an untrustworthy, salacious pedophile sympathizer, that is their prerogative. But the evidence stands: MJWML is one hell of a book of totally solid reportage.
Yes, it paints Michael and Jordie's relationship as consensual; it does, by the end of the book, provide a list of pedophilic relationships in history in order to sort of justify the 'okay-ness' of their alleged sexual connection; it does, gratuitously, turn Jordie's simple affirmations of abuse into pornographic fantasy fiction.
However, none of the above discount the book's overwhelmingly high quality and fastidiousness.
Challenge Victor Gutierrez's taste level all you want but I will continue to use this factual work for the simple reason it was never repudiated by Michael as false and the boys implicated in the book never sued. I suspect it is because the vast majority of the details are true and would stand up in a court of law.
Whether fans want to take Gutierrez's sins and make him look like an untrustworthy, salacious pedophile sympathizer, that is their prerogative. But the evidence stands: MJWML is one hell of a book of totally solid reportage.
Yes, it paints Michael and Jordie's relationship as consensual; it does, by the end of the book, provide a list of pedophilic relationships in history in order to sort of justify the 'okay-ness' of their alleged sexual connection; it does, gratuitously, turn Jordie's simple affirmations of abuse into pornographic fantasy fiction.
However, none of the above discount the book's overwhelmingly high quality and fastidiousness.
Challenge Victor Gutierrez's taste level all you want but I will continue to use this factual work for the simple reason it was never repudiated by Michael as false and the boys implicated in the book never sued. I suspect it is because the vast majority of the details are true and would stand up in a court of law.
____________________________________________________________________________
(1) I originally thought that this was merely for effect but it turns out that particular line can be cross-referenced with an interview given by Sergeant Deborah Linden, former deputy for Santa Barbara County; from page 445 of Maureen Orth's "Losing His Grip":
(3) If there still exists any doubt about who could have provided Victor Gutierrez with the seemingly very personal information he had, he did cite Dave and June (Chandler) Schwartz as sources of information in the back of his book. It would make sense they are the sources of his info because Evan had a toxic relationship with both of them; it is clear in the book that Evan is made out to be the 'bad guy'...
(4) While researching this book, I stumbled upon a Fox News article by Roger Friedman. Near the end, he haphazardly states MJWML was 'made up' by Gutierrez weaving together 'bits and pieces' of speculation he'd gotten from the Chandlers' then-maid. He also stated that the book was 'more pornographic' than anything the police say they found. All of that is ridiculous and such analysis shows Friedman most likely did not read the book. There is nothing pornographic about MJWML that would make it so the police would have more than circumstantial evidence a crime had occurred. Gutierrez details sex acts, not child porn or anything else of that nature. Friedman's flippancy towards Gutierrez's book has a basis in nothing else but ignorance.
(5) The list is interesting. It would certainly jive with what Jordie told Dr. Richard Gardner (and, by extension, the discussion Michael had with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach as detailed in his book The Michael Jackson Tapes, page 238) about levitators and conditioning.
(6) The thought of Evan and Jordie trying to remember the events that occurred surrounding the alleged molestation would make it seem, according to many of Michael's fans, that they are just trying to get their 'story straight'. Well, a look at the chronology as provided in the book, there are many times Evan writes question marks near dates or says 'Jordie can't remember'. If their accusations were false, wouldn't they have been able to remember everything perfectly?
(7) In my last blog post, I mentioned Kassim Abdool's tale of Michael requesting Vaseline. Originally, I used it as a way to cross-reference the accusation by Jordie that Michael would apply Vaseline to Brett Barnes' anus in order to 'soothe his constipation'. However, I did not totally believe Abdool's anecdote because he never related it to the Grand Jury for Michael's 2005 case. In MJWML, Gutierrez mentions the story (presumably he is interviewing Abdool, which explains his direct quotes). I found this startling for the simple fact the story dates to at least 1995 or 1996! Why Abdool didn't tell it to the Grand Jury but later would tell it to District Attorney Tom Sneddon mid-trial is still a mystery...
"Jordan stated that Jackson told him if Jordan ever told anyone about the molests, Jordan would be placed in Juvenile Hall and both Jordan and Jackson would be in trouble. Jordan said that Jackson told him he did this with other boys; however, Jackson said that 'he didn't go as far with them.'"(2) There are many elements in this book that are fodder for pedophiles. From the cover art, with 'was my lover' scrawled in child-like handwriting; to the captions beneath some of the photos (for example, beneath a photo of Jordie's bedroom: "The young boy's bedroom, where he lived with his mother, was decorated with gifts from Jackson. In this bed is where some of the most erotic moments between them occurred.") and the photos themselves (for example, a spread of boys' underwear and boxer shorts); to the graphic descriptions of sexual activities between Michael Jackson and Jordie Chandler, Gutierrez's book is rife with 'child erotica', which is discussed here (pages 75-76 of the .pdf file):
...defined...as "any material, relating to children, that serves the purpose for a given individual [pedophile]." ...[Child erotica] is a broader, more encompassing, and more subjective term than child pornography. It includes things such as fantasy writings, letters, diaries, books, sexual aids, souvenirs, toys, costumes, drawings, and nonsexually explicit visual images. Such child erotica might also be referred to as "pedophile paraphernalia".In my opinion, there is no way Victor Gutierrez didn't have the interests of pedophiles in mind when he wrote the book. However, that does not discount the accuracy, incredible detail, and invaluableness of the piece as a whole.
(3) If there still exists any doubt about who could have provided Victor Gutierrez with the seemingly very personal information he had, he did cite Dave and June (Chandler) Schwartz as sources of information in the back of his book. It would make sense they are the sources of his info because Evan had a toxic relationship with both of them; it is clear in the book that Evan is made out to be the 'bad guy'...
(4) While researching this book, I stumbled upon a Fox News article by Roger Friedman. Near the end, he haphazardly states MJWML was 'made up' by Gutierrez weaving together 'bits and pieces' of speculation he'd gotten from the Chandlers' then-maid. He also stated that the book was 'more pornographic' than anything the police say they found. All of that is ridiculous and such analysis shows Friedman most likely did not read the book. There is nothing pornographic about MJWML that would make it so the police would have more than circumstantial evidence a crime had occurred. Gutierrez details sex acts, not child porn or anything else of that nature. Friedman's flippancy towards Gutierrez's book has a basis in nothing else but ignorance.
(5) The list is interesting. It would certainly jive with what Jordie told Dr. Richard Gardner (and, by extension, the discussion Michael had with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach as detailed in his book The Michael Jackson Tapes, page 238) about levitators and conditioning.
(6) The thought of Evan and Jordie trying to remember the events that occurred surrounding the alleged molestation would make it seem, according to many of Michael's fans, that they are just trying to get their 'story straight'. Well, a look at the chronology as provided in the book, there are many times Evan writes question marks near dates or says 'Jordie can't remember'. If their accusations were false, wouldn't they have been able to remember everything perfectly?
(7) In my last blog post, I mentioned Kassim Abdool's tale of Michael requesting Vaseline. Originally, I used it as a way to cross-reference the accusation by Jordie that Michael would apply Vaseline to Brett Barnes' anus in order to 'soothe his constipation'. However, I did not totally believe Abdool's anecdote because he never related it to the Grand Jury for Michael's 2005 case. In MJWML, Gutierrez mentions the story (presumably he is interviewing Abdool, which explains his direct quotes). I found this startling for the simple fact the story dates to at least 1995 or 1996! Why Abdool didn't tell it to the Grand Jury but later would tell it to District Attorney Tom Sneddon mid-trial is still a mystery...
(8) Maureen Orth's "Losing His Grip" from the April 2003 issue of Vanity Fair, page 445:
The book [Michael Jackson Was My Lover]--which no U.S. publisher would touch after the slander lawsuit--was first published privately in Chile, and all copies soon disappeared.... Two prosecution sources told me they had heard that Michael Jackson had people go around and buy up all the available copies.
(9) According to a 1994 Los Angeles Times article and page 356 of Christopher Andersen's Michael Jackson: Unauthorized, Michael Jackson pled the Fifth Amendment 17 times in the deposition for the Hayvenhurst bodyguards' lawsuit to avoid answering questions regarding any possible child molestations, as he might've incriminated himself.









61 comments:
Good entry, my fav so far :).
Just one thought. I haven't read the book as I've told you before - I'm still not prepared to pay the price it currently sells for :) - I understand from what you write that the book is based on real documents, mainly from the Chandlers' side. Other than the diary, things like the declarations Jordie and Evan gave are most probably authentic (am still not sure 'the drawing'/triangle+two lines is authentic, but it might be). If this is the case, then obviously no one is willing to sue VG: he cited REAL sources, now if the sources were lying it's not his fault, is it? :). If the boys named - Culkin, Brett - (or even MJ) wanted to sue anyone for slander, they would have to sue the Chandlers who alledged stuff about them, not VG - he just cited documents pertaining to a child molestation case, from the alledged victim side, didn't he? But now it's not Jordie or Evan Chandler that made the info public, VG did, so I'm not quite sure anyone can be sued for slander here really, though I admit I don't know the law, am just trying to think (logicly, I hope:)).
Sly:
Thank you; I tried to make it informative... :-)
Slander in the US is the intentional and malicious defamation of someone through a written medium. Mac Culkin and Brett Barnes would never be able to prove any party--the Chandlers or Victor Gutierrez--intentionally or maliciously slandered them.
It's practically impossible here.
The book is based on documents and sources, yes. If the sources lie, Gutierrez would not be at fault, unless he knew they were lying and published their stories anyway (that's how the tabloids in the US work, too). Even if Gutierrez had the information given to him by the sources and exposed them to embarrass Michael for profit, Michael would have to prove not only that Gutierrez had a malicious intent to defame, but he'd also have to prove that Gutierrez's goal was to smear. In a nutshell, he'd have to prove Gutierrez knew the sources were lying but didn't care.
You know what I mean? It's impossible.
Basically, for MJWML, there would be no suing for slander at all. There is too much detail that would have to be refuted by Michael. And, as the video above showed, he gets really uncomfortable when he has to talk about Jordie Chandler.
Sly, let me ask you something: if you could say, in a nutshell, what is the main factor influencing you to maintain Michael was innocent of child molestation? Just curious... I guess I don't see it. ;-)
Desiree, you are so right. Some of these fans are so dense that I have to dissociate myself from them. I have no idea of how the American judicial system works but if Evan did indeed contribute to this book, why would he incriminate himself, knowing fully well that he could be charged with pandering?
So many quotes stood out which possibly did not come from Evan. If anything this book was clearly portrays him in an unfavourable light for continuing to negotiate instead of being concerned for the welfare of his son.
Gutierrez said it best when he pointed out that Jackson's sexual conduct with Jordie was not the error which brought him down. It was underestimating Evan who turned out to be a vocal and aggressive negotiator who would have overlooked Michael and Jordie's relationship if he had been given something in the beginning. Most of the people who condemned this book have not even read it. I am sure they will see Michael from a different perspective if they do. Moreover there are some insiderish details about the Jackson family and Michael's relationship with them which could only come from a Jackson mole. What do you think?
Sofi, what are those details about the Jackson family? It's interesting that some of the family insiders could be involved in this 1993 molestation accusation thing...
sofi:
LOL, I had long distanced myself from other Michael Jackson fans when they were arguing over whether or not he was a womanizer. Silliest debate ever, given my research.
I agree, if the fans actually read Gutierrez's book--and read it with an open mind--they couldn't bash it. Like I said above, there is a clear bias within in favor of pedophilia, though. That might turn some people off...
In terms of Evan Chandler, if he had wrote the book and was discovered, I would think he'd lose his settlement money. But it is just so unbelievable that he could ever write the book. Gutierrez says he talked to Dave Schwartz and June Chandler, maybe some of that stuff is from Larry Feldman.
Re: insider details, I guess I'd have to re-read the book again. What specifically are you talking about? Page numbers, section? I'd have to look again, LOL.
Jesterjester:
What do you mean by 'family insiders involved in the molestation accusation thing'?
I hope you aren't talking about some conspiracy theory AGAINST Michael. The only one he can fault for 1993 is himself and his insatiable pedophilia!
Michael, contrary to what many fans want to believe, was a very sick pedophile, a product of being physically, sexually, emotionally, and verbally abused by Joe Jackson.
Yes, sexually... I have a post coming up about that, by the way...
Desiree, I'm not a fan, I'm just curious and I make my own little research like you do it.
I'm not convinced in anything yet regarding molestation.
There are some people who think that there might be family involvement in this 1993 story. But they don't know what was the real business, evetything is very vague. That is why I asked this question.
Looking for your post about Joe.
By the way: fans talking about MJ being a womanizer just KILL me!!!! :-)))
jesterjester:
I have never heard of family involvement about the molestation case in 1993. Do me for or against Michael?
I am not saying my blog is the definitive blog showing the reasonable suspicion that Michael was a pedophile. I have really just gotten started and compiling research and writing it down is the hardest thing to do when you have school as well (I'm a college student). But I have to make better efforts! :-)
LOL, Michael Jackson was never a womanizer. Ever. Even Michael's 'special friends' say they never saw him with women.
Michael was gay... I have a post on that coming up, as well...
This is a well-written review. I may just have to read that book. I'm surprised anyone would think Evan Chandler ghost wrote it. An outraged father would not write something like that, as if Michael and his son were in love. Besides, when people sign silencing contracts, speaking out would mean paying back every dime. Then again, I gave in and checked the links for the Vindate MJ site. Talk about rabid fans! It's one thing to enjoy somebody's music. It's another to act as if that person were the new messiah. My mother likes Frank Sinatra's music. But that doesn't mean she would have ever wanted to spend time alone with him, worshipping at his feet (or something).
Len:
LOL, I'm glad you decided to look at Vindicate MJ. Like I said in this entry, they will block your comments if you say something against Michael Jackson.
I actually tried to leave a comment on there recently (posing as a fan) and they figured it out through my IP address and deleted it.
X-D I'm still laughing at that one. If any of them ever see this thread, I want them to know how badly I would like to leave comments to their blog entries. They are rife with ridiculous speculation, faulty logic, and sniveling. But I have been effectively neutered.
Maybe they are intimidated... I don't know. They are very rabid. How someone can possess utmost certainty that Michael was innocent, given the fact he paid $15.3M and $2.2M to two boys alleging molestation, is beyond me.
"No one is more blind than those who will not see."
As for Victor Gutierrez's book, Len, it is very expensive. Last time I looked, they were selling a few copies on Amazon for $179. That's cheaper than what I bought my book for. But it's worth it, although you can just read my blog posts, if you'd like. He's a great source and I pull from him frequently.
Desiree,
perhaps against. But it could be something different, not connected to Chandlers at all...
Yes, he was gay. That's true.
JesterJester, I can't believe you aren't convinced that Michael at least had some weird attraction/preoccupation with children, especially little boys. I mean, it was pretty obvious he was a pedophile. He had these "special friends" since the early 1980s and he brought them to Hayvenhurst and paraded them around for everyone to see like some bizarre pederists'...well...parade! LOL
Michael had issues and kids were like a drug to him (as evidenced in Rabbi Shmuley's book); he was obsessed and all that "lost childhood" crap was his way of having access to these boys. And he never acted innocent when the 1993 case broke out, he fled like a guilty man would. Norma Staikos "the duenna of Neverland" left for Greece 1-2 days before a court ordered deposition, and she was the one who put Michael in contact with all these little boys and their families. She even said she wouldn't leave her kids with Michael.
Desiree, this was a great post. I have had the luck in having a copy of this really expensive rare book and I can tell you there is no way that Evan wrote this book. Point blank period. As you said, it would make him look guilty of extortion--something he had always denied. Gutierrez may be a pedophile sympathizer but that doesn't mean what he wrote is untrue. He just put a sick spin on it.
Oh and I looked at Vindicate MJ and that site is so fucking stupid (sorry to curse). I have never seen a wider collection of poorly-written (you can tell no one there has a gift with words like you do LOL)Wacko Jacko spin, wacko-fan theory posts in my life! Wasn't that one anonymous from under your post about the Diane Sawyer interview from there? Well, I sure school him! It took three long comments but I think he got the picture (or maybe not). Anyways, it's frankly disturbing to have all these people that have never met the man defend him like he was a member of their family. But I truely believe that they really don't know the truth behind all of this mess but they refuse to admit it to themselves. Because the un-Wacko Jacko brainwashed can clearly see he was, and always will be, guilty.
J-M-H:
Glad you clicked over to Vindicate MJ like Len did. LOL about their articles being poorly written.
They have more passion and devotion than a good grasp on syntax. That was mean.
You did school David, J-M-H. I wish he'd be willing to debate in the threads here, since I cannot do it over there. :-(
On page 30; Gutierrez wrote about Michael spending little time or money on his own nieces and nephews in contrast to his special friends. The only exception being Jeremy (Jermaine's son), who fitted Michael's preference along age and racial lines. It just seemed strange to me that Gutierrez would have such detailed knowlegde about Michael's relationship with his family unless someone inside the Jackson camp told him.
J-M-H,
of course he had attraction/preoccupation with children! Well, I thought it's obvious...
Where did you get information about Staikos? I'd like to know more about this lady...
Hey JesterJester,
I should've known you would know he was a freak LOL.
On Norma Staikos:
One source is Diane Dimond's book Be Careful Who You Love. She talks to a woman named Orietta Murdoch and she had some interesting stuff Norma told her regarding Michael and his like of boys. Also it mentions her flight to Greece.
Also, Maureen Orth's article "Nightmare in Neverland". She talks about Norma disappearing to Greece and what she did at Neverland. I think Desiree had a link to in one of her posts but i'll give it here: http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1994/01/orth199401?currentPage=all
Christopher Andersen's book Michael Jackson: Unauthorized talks a lot about Norma.
On thesmokinggun.com there was an article about with a related document made during the 2005 trial written by Tom Sneddon that mentions that Norma Staikos said she wouldn't leave her children alone with Michael. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jacko-question-character
sofi:
Oh! That was the passage you were discussing. My mistake; I had pasted that in the post. :-)
Honestly, sofi, I think Gutierrez was doing two things:
1 - His book was released in 1996, which was after he'd said he had saw the videotape of Michael Jackson having sex with a young boy, who he obviously stated was Jeremy Maldonado. I think he was trying to link the two together: Gutierrez shows in his book that the only cousin he spends time with is Jeremy, which would make it reasonable for one to really believe Jeremy (seeing that he spends a lot of time with Michael) would be on the tape.
2 - I personally just think Gutierrez is a little (or maybe a lot) perverted. He could have thought after looking at Jeremy that the boy was cute and that it is easy to believe Michael would think of Jeremy as his type: dark haired, tan-skinned, mixed like Jordie Chandler.
That's just my thought process, sofi, although Michael does have a preference for mixed race boys! For his 'This is IT' shows, he had requested a choir of mulatto boys to perform alongside of him, although I cannot find a link to the story I had read (it was a couple of months back).
I own a copy of Margaret Maldonado's book (as you can see in the picture opening the entry) and she is very similar to ALL of the Jackson wives I have read about: all of the wives will BASH every other member of the Jackson family but they will not bash Michael. This goes with Eliza Shaffy, Margaret Maldonado, Enid Spann, etc.
And I find this very...odd. I am not saying that these women are liars but Michael has a history of paying off families and he very much enjoyed his mixed nephews. Many fans believe it isn't odd that he had semi-nude pictures of Tito's sons 3T all over his house but I think he was sexually attracted to them.
Anyway, I think the reasoning behind all of the wives whitewashing Michael and being so effusive is because he funded their lifestyles. They would never bite the hand that fed them.
So... is it possible he could have been on camera with Jeremy and just paid off Margaret? I think it is possible! BUT, do I think that is what happened? No.
Jermaine (and the whole family) saw him holding 3T on the bed in a disturbing manner after Dee Dee Martes (their mother) passed away. I think he is totally capable of molesting his nephews.
J-M-H, thank you. I need to find my Christian Andersen's book.
Desiree
I see you've bought Geraldine Hughes Redemption too. What a waste of money. I bought it out of curiousity hoping to find a whole wealth of evidence. What a waste of time! I felt as if I was reading the Holy Bible. Where is this woman's proof of extortion? She even claimed Jordie was a 'white boy'! According to her the parents and lawyers met at Rothman's office during the pre-settlement phase. Did she not notice that June was part black, part asian? Moreover,if she had all this evidence,as she claimed, why was she not able to prove this in 1993? Michael would have been vindicated 100 times over and would not have paid a cent to the Chandlers. Yet fans herald this book as gospel.
sofi:
LMAO! Ugh, it was like reading the Bible! I believe in God, too, but I prefer to keep him separate from stuff like that. It was just too much and so unnecessary!
As a writer, I began to read Hughes' book and it was just horrible. No grasp of syntax or grammar or anything. It was terribly written!
I am not trying to bash her, per se, but I guess I expected a level of quality seeing that she claimed she'd been this big legal secretary for several decades. I'm like, 'Is this woman stupid?' :-)
I have to admit, sofi, that I did not get through her book because it was that poorly-written. Maybe I will give it another try...eventually.
However, I did look through the pages (no start to finish, like I've said) and read passages that caught my eye. Hughes' book is clearly taken from Mary Fischer's 1994 GQ article. She was quoted in Mary's piece but they didn't name her. Funny thing is that Mary referred to Hughes' calendar book as a 'diary', which makes you think Miss Geraldine had written lengthy passages detailing the scandal. Actually her passages were really short and some of them are kind of suspect, IMO.
In Mary's article Jordie was given sodium amytal, which allegedly makes a person who is put under its effects susceptible to the implantation of false memories. But Hughes says she heard Jordie being coached on what to say!
So, if Hughes' book is based upon Mary's article but they don't correlate, someone is lying.
I think they both are. Just like you said about Michael being vindicated 100X over if she'd witnessed an extortion plot, Michael would have been vindicated--and Evan charged!--if they had proof of sodium amytal usage!
Also, if she'd seen everything, why the hell didn't she go to the police? Why did she wait until 2004 to release her book? Why was she not a witness for the defense in the 2005 trial?
Simple: she's full of crap. If she didn't even know Jordie's race than she probably wasn't privy to anything. Her goal was to bash Rothman, IMO, and he said she was never around when he and the Chandlers were doing business. She's doodoo, as Michael would say.
Have you read Ray Chandler's rebuttal to her book? It's really good.
http://michael-jackson-facts.yolasite.com/redemption---sloppy-work.php
He has a rebuttal to the Mary Fischer article, too, on the site.
@Desiree,
I never said I believed MJ was innocent. Yes, I like MJ, and hence I tend to look for flaws in the arguments against his innocence:), but the very fact that I come back here shows I have my doubts. My stance is: I don't know. I was not a fly on the wall in that room, so I can't know. This is something that worries me about 'vindicate MJ' - they KNOW MJ was innocent and want to convince us of that; as far as I am concerned, they fail, even if I'd like to be convinced. But is he def guilty because his fans can't be eloquent and can't come up with a balanced view? In my mind, sill no.
Also, had it not been for Jordie, my doubts re his innocence would have at least halved - I find it very very hard to believe Gavin, Wade or Mac were molested. Also, had it not been for Jordie, I would have not thought the Jason Francia tickling game was molestation at all, even if I believed it happened. And also had it not been for Jordie's allegations, I would not have believed Brett was molested either.
So to me it all boils down to: do I believe Jordie? My main doubts here are:
1. First, there is a lot of 'mystery' (in my mind at least) surrounding the Jordie evidence:
I have never seen or heard Jordie being interviewed, testifying, giving declarations etc. So I can't say whether he sounded credible or not. I also have not seen Gardner say 'I interviewed this kid and I believed him'. (And I know you don't compare the cases, but what I have seen was the video of Gavin being question by police and he did not sound very believable to me...)
Some of the alleged Jordie evidence is well, still alleged. e.g. the drawing with the blotch that could only be noticed when Mj was erect. That blotch is not there in the VG book drawing, and the drawing he made for the police never surfaced. So far I am still to see a drawing where Jordie alleges he saw this and that mark that cannot be seen had MJ not been erect, let alone see the photos that matched that drawing.
The Brett allegation is again a bit questionable to me. Assuming the doc in VG's book is authentic. Why hasn't Jordie ask the police to take a med exam of Brett? Assuming he had, why hasn't the police tried to get that exam done? Assuming they had and Brett refused, why hasn't Sneddon mention that in his cross examination - that would have def raised many eyebrows re Brett's credibility...
2. I've read the transcripts of Jordie's interview with Gardner and of Evan's convos with Dave. I find it at least a bit odd that the way Jordie talks about MJ is the same as Evan talks about MJ with Dave - to me that shows Evan influenced Jordie's opinion of MJ. While I agree with you that there is no way those convo are proof of any extorsion plan, still Evan comes across as nothing but nice to me, sorry. He seems to suspect something is happening between his son and MJ, true, but he sure has no proof of any sexual misconduct: he says he taped Jordie's and MJ's convos. Had there been anything said there, do you think Mj would have waited a second to settle? No declaration from Jodie would have been necessary to prove he was guilty...
Also, what is apparent to me is that Evan sounds a bit obsessive: he is def obsessed with the idea that MJ broke his family and repeats that 8:30, 8:36 time when everything will be revealed so many times it drives me mad. He also seems to have issues with women cheating on him and the thing he says he said to Monique re telling and cheating or cheating and telling sounds a bit disturbing to me. Bottomline, if someone would have asked me if I believe this guy I would have thought twice.
I still don't know why Jordie emancipated from Evan, I still don't know why Evan died alone, I still don't know why neither Evan, nor Jordie, nor Ray testified against MJ...I'm not saying these are proofs Mj is innocent, no way, but they could be at least linked to questioning whether MJ is innocent or not...
Sly, thank you. My thoughts are very similar to yours. I also 99% sure that MJ never molested Gavin Arvizo, testimonies of his relatives, especially his brother, sound just fake. Unfortunately there are not so many materials regarding 1993 case that could be found online. (I mean real papers, not someone's narrations, of course), that's why it's not easy to separate real facts from someone's wild imagination, mistakes and lies.
Evan Chandler in his conversation with Schwartz sounds like a guy who's brain exploded. :-) As if he suspects that his son was molested, but he isn't sure, and he doesn't know what to do: to destroy MJ or to demand a huge sum of money, for example. :-) Also Jordie's conversation with a psychologist... Someimes he says things that sound too mature for a 13 year old boy. English is not my native language, of course, but personally I (and I'm old enough to be a mother of a 13 y.o. boy) would find it not too easy to formulate some of the thoughts the way he did it even in my native language. :-)
Oh, Sly, Sly, Sly... LOL :-)
I am glad you've decided to return to read my MJ investigatory blog entries. Although I am not here to necessarily convince you of his guilt (and I do believe he was guilty of child molestation and was a pedophile), it's not like I wouldn't be happy if I did.
Well, I have to disagree with you about Vindicate MJ. I don't think their inability to write cogent blog posts on Michael's 'innocence' has anything to do with their intelligence level. It is true; they are not eloquent and they have a typical American grasp on grammar rules.
Their inability to convince of his innocence has to do with the fact they don't have much material to work with. All they are doing is creating a 'reasonable doubt', casting suspicion on the ACCUSING parties.
And, as any American familiar with the US justice system knows, 'not guilty' does not mean 'innocent'; it just means you had a damn good defense attorney.
Anyway, here's my issue with your logic, Sly, and I mean that with all affection. I don't think it is fair that, because this guy is Michael Jackson, who made 'Thriller' and knows how to moonwalk, he is given more benefit of the doubt than the alleged victims.
So is the way of our justice system in the US, I am aware, but it isn't really fair.
Now, you know I don't think it is fair to view one case based on the others. If you think Gavin is BS, that doesn't mean Jordie was. And just because Jordie was molested, that doesn't mean the other 'special friends' were.
However, your train of thought is natural and understandable.
Your doubts:
Re: Gavin Arvizo: Generally, I don't believe the boy was molested because Michael didn't like him. But, I saw him being interrogated by police and he looked believable to me. Maybe he really didn't know what the word 'ejaculation' meant. (All 3 Arvizo kids don't seem like the sharpest knives in the drawer.) Michael was trying to get rid of them; I know it. It's too suspicious all of the happenings surrounding them. All of that makes me think he could have molested Gavin, although I don't really believe it...
Re: the drawing in Gutierrez's book: I have looked closely and compared handwritings as scanned in the book; the drawing appears to be in Evan's handwriting. That's just an observation. Before you say anything, I don't think that is proof of extortion or set up or whatever you might conclude. I believe it could have been either a simple dictation--Jordie telling what he knew to Evan and Evan jotting it down--or that Evan had scribbled it down for the lawyers after having spoken with his son. If you look at the time on the drawing, it is late at night, possibly too late for a child to be at a lawyers office? Also, that is not the official document that went into the police's hands (I believe I made that clear each time I used it in a post); that was made for the lawyers. Remember, as I said in the above post, Larry Feldman and June Chandler were sources for Gutierrez's book. That is probably how he got the photo...
(cont'd)
Re: splotches, matches, etc: This pdf is Sneddon's brief requesting to introduce as evidence Michael's penis photos and Jordie's description of them.
http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/052505pltmotchandler.pdf
Sneddon stated that these were 'unimpeachable', meaning they would be impossible to discredit. Why would Sneddon be so brazen as to try to introduce as evidence something that was BS? Simple: he wouldn't. According to reports, Sneddon had only lost 5 cases in his 30+ year career. He was referred to as Mad Dog because he was so tough. Also, those briefs are written under penalty of perjury; he can't lie without serious consequences. Lastly, I think something needs to be cleared up: Jordie's description was of Michael's erect penis, not whatever it was flaccid...
Re: Brett and the med exam: In the US, the police are not allowed to demand a med exam of a private citizen (esp. a child) for exploratory purposes. That is a violation of civil rights. I doubt Sneddon even asked, if he had been told, knowing that the US Constitution forbids such a thing.
Re: Dr. Gardner: Seeing that there was a transcript of his convo with Jordie, I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. Also, Gardner is not required to divulge his opinions regarding Jordie's believability. It would be highly unprofessional and, frankly, dubious. One man's opinion, whether he was the leading expert on false claims of child abuse or not, does not negate the fact a child could have been abused. However, in Diane Dimond's book and Ian Halperin's (which is more accurate than people think, I have found), they state Gardner DID believe Jordie.
Re: the way Jordie sounded with Gardner: is it really fair to fault a kid who sounds like his father? What I think is that Evan may have had to convince Jordie he was being treated inappropriately by Michael in an unacceptable way (like how Evan said he had to be convinced by therapists and experts that Jordie was being harmed). But regardless if you think there were times Jordie sounded 'coached', there were things said that could not have been made up whatsoever, unless Jordie lived in a porn shop (given in a kid's description!). That is the most important thing.
Re: Evan Chandler in the convos: I will say that your opinion of Evan's personality quirks is meaningless. Everyone has issues. Personally, I agree with Evan and the cheating thing; what's wrong with wanting open communication? Again, your opinion means nothing; even if you think he's weird and you disagree with his views on certain things, that shouldn't stoke a bias.
I don't think you are being fair and, as you said so yourself, it is because you are blinded in your adoration of Michael. You are a fan and it is natural that you want the person you like to be 'good'. However, that is not the proper way to go about looking at these molestation issues. Abandon all affection, Sly! :-)
(cont'd)
Yes, there was no proof of extortion in the tapes, no matter how much Anthony Pellicano manipulated them. Evan did tape the convos between Michael and Jordie but, when asked by Dave what was harming Jordie, was it simply Michael 'spoiling' him that was causing harm, Evan said, 'No.' He knew what it was. He questioned rhetorically why Michael would want to split he and Jordie up and suggested it was because Michael and Jordie would be doing something that is detrimental to Jordie's well-being. When Dave asked him if he thought Michael was fucking Jordie, he said he didn't know, that he had no idea.
But clearly he knew what was going on: Michael had an inappropriate attraction to Jordie and their relationship would harm Jordie!
I think you need to go back and really read the convos closely. It took several reads to unearth all of the jewels. Pellicano really did a number on those tapes. Ugh.
So, I don't think it is fair for you to base your opinion on Evan because you don't like that he was 'obsessive' over the idea of Michael destroying his family (hello, he is the kid's father! Michael went and fucked up everything in typical divide and conquer pedophile fashion. Why would someone need to intervene in a custody case that doesn't involve him? Hmm...). So what if Evan Chandler was cheated on and was angry. Big deal.
I have more proof to post about. I'll leave it here for now...
But the bottomline is this: Michael Jackson tried to buy their silence through the negotiations and failed. It got out of hand, which is why he stayed out of the country until the police promised not to arrest him. Let's not forget he paid a handsome sum!
Re: Jordie's emancipation: You know, fan theory dictates his emancipation meant he hated his parents. Didn't T-Mez state this at Harvard Law? T-Mez doubled as defense attorney and PR man, clever bastard. He's BFFs with Randy Jackson, remember. Anyway, Jordie's communication with June fell to the wayside post-settlement (let's be honest: she pimped the boy like the other mothers did their sons) but he continued to be close with his father. June was shut out. It was probably Evan's advice for Jordie to emancipate himself in order to protect his monies from anyone. It's BS to think it was because Jordie hated someone. If anything, it was his mother. Evan was honorable.
Re: the Chandler men not testifying: I think it should be noted that Jordie's refusal to testify was the only reason the DAs couldn't get an indictment. That shows how strong their case was, but, without Jordie to corroborate what the other witnesses would say, the case was dead.
Maybe you can explain this to me, Sly: why do fans constantly harp on the fact none of the Chandler men testified yet they say NOTHING about the fact Michael was never even interrogated by anyone, not to mention he stayed out of the country! I think it's more than a little hypocritical.
Also, Ray didn't not testify because he was afraid of perjuring himself; he didn't testify because he didn't have to, which was why his motion to quash the subpoena was granted.
Read this document:
http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/102504nommot3rdpty.pdf
Ray Chandler was only to be a witness in order to authenticate his own documents. He stated the reason for the quash motion was because Michael's team could get the documents and be able to authenticate them themselves. Basically he was not needed.
As for Jordie and Evan in 2005, I don't know. Evan had a painful disease, maybe he'd been sick? I think Jordie, like many victims of sex crimes, didn't want to face his abuser, in both 1994 and 2005.
(cont'd)
Re: Evan dying alone: Again, fan theory says Evan killed himself because he'd been torn up with guilt over 'destroying' Michael's life. Bullshit; what a cruel surmise. Michael's fans are disgusting in their rabidity anyway, but that's really, really cruel. He was sick. If you research Gaucher's disease, which affects Ashkenazi Jews like Evan, it is a terrible and painful condition. He probably killed himself because he was in pain.
Why he died alone? Well, I know fans like to say it is because everyone hated him. The physical altercation with Jordie probably caused their rift. Why is it that fans think that fight was about Michael? Is there anything in these people's lives that doesn't have to be rooted in Michael Jackson?
Nuts...
You know, I often wonder if you are just being obstinate. No one has to convince you either way, Sly, definitely not the victims. Michael Jackson was what he was; I think you choose not to see.
jesterjester:
Check my comment to Sly. You guys need to get it together. :-)
It's good you are here, then.
Desiree,
You speak the truth! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion--whether it jives with reality or not--on Michael Jackson. But I have read those transcripts and I think that Evan is totally believable. Pellicano released those tapes--which he edited in peculiar and, perhaps, damning to Mike's innocence, areas--thinking that he was showing Evan to be an evil extortionist. He failed IMO.
The first time I read those convos I was looking for evidence of a criminal mindset in Evan but I was utterly shocked and to be honest emotionally shaken by the concern he had for Jordie in this whole thing. I have since read those convos 5 times and I continue to find little things in them that make my belief in Mike's guilt even more strong.
I think to myself why would anyone create a false molestation allegation if they were allegedly just jealous of their son's friendship with a superstar. I mean, to me, that is ridiculous, esp. if the goal was to get money. Wouldn't that be proven false immediately? I don't think creating a false molestation accusation was in Evan's mind when he said he was willing to make his life a whole lot worse to get Jordie out harm's way and that Jordie may hate him now but he will see in time that "he was honest... he had integrity...I could trust him". I don't think he would say all that with the intent on creating a false molestation accusation. Doing that would not show Jordie he could "pattern himself" off of Evan and that Evan had integrity and that he was someone who loves Jordie, which Jordie would recognize. How would doing that help solidify feelings of trust and love in Jordie's mind for Evan? I WOULD NOT.
Also, to me, it's pretty clear that Evan knows that Mike had a peculiar interest in Jordie. That is plain to see if you read those convos carefully. I think when Evan was like he taped Jordie and Mike's phone calls, those calls revealed and would reveal that Mike was romantically interested in Jordie. It doesn't matter if there was no explicit sexual references made in those calls; everyone who's ever had a phone call with a crush or a significant other knows you can make evident your love and interest in them without being sexually explicit. And Evan clearly had intentions of using these taped calls. He said Mike had something to hide and he knew what it was and Mike would be humiliated by it if it got out. When Schwartz asked if he thought Mike was fucking Jordie, he said he didn't know and he had no idea. But he never said "fuck no" or "hell no" or "where did you get that idea?", which tells me that he suspected a more than friendly relationship but had no sexually explicit proof.
Evan had the evidence. He had enough evidence to show that Michael Jackson was a pedophile who was romantically interested in his son, and that if the world knew, there would be no more Michael Jackson.
And let's face it, Michael Jackson just did not act innocent once these allegations broke. He fled, Norma fled, his medical records that were requested by law enforcement disappeared, he pretended to be seriously addicted to drugs and close to death to evade returning to the country--only to return "miraculously cured" 3-4 weeks later when his lawyers made a deal so he wouldn't be arrested once he got back on American soil (some think he got certain marks on his penis removed while in Europe--which to me would jive with the missing medical records--no proof of what it looked like before). And for the coup de grace, he paid $15.3 million a day before his court appointed deposition.
Let's face it, the man was hiding something.
Desiree and JMH
Thank you for your eloquent and informative comments. I read Ray Chandler's book a couple of years ago and was quite unconvinced by it as I felt that it offered nothing insightful. I must admit that at the time I thought he was cashing in on all the publicity surrounding the trial and was his brother's mouthpiece; whom I still believed was an extortioner. I was convinced that he wrote the book in order to side-step the settlement agreement and convince the public of Michael's guilt; thus enabling him to tell their side of the story without either Chandler male stepping foot inside the courtroom. I believed like everyone else, that they avoided testifying because their stories would not hold up in court. As I mentioned before, I only started to doubt Michael's innocence (re:Jordie) after his death when I read the Gardner interview and did some more extensive reading. I might just re read Ray's book, if only to get the full understanding from their perspective.
sofi,
I totally understand why you would think that Ray Chandler's book was just a mouthpiece for Evan. That is any fan's first reaction, mine included. I actually just read Ray's book about 2 months ago for the first time and I was thoroughly convinced, although I myself have always had an issue with ghost-quote narration...but that type of narration is in Christopher Andersen's book and J. Randy Taraborrelli's book and those are two pretty legit books on Wacko Jacko. Also, Ray Chandler is quite brilliant and is very rational. If you've ever been on his site 'Wacko Facts' and read his article debunking Mary Fischer and Geraldine Hughes, you will see how thorough he is with the evidence against Mike. I find it hard to believe anyone couldn't at least have some doubt raised in their mind as to Mike's guilt after reading some of the things he writes.
And I, too, am not convincd that Mike molested Gavin Arvizo. Unlike Jordie and the Chandler family, the Arvizos are documented liars, with perjury charges to prove it. Jordie isn't like that and his family aren't like that. I think it's ridiculous the way some like to group all these molestation claims together; that if one is a lie, they all are. They are separate issues and they should be seen as separate. Now, I could be wrong about Gavin haven been molested and I agree with Desiree that there was definitely something suspicious going on re: getting the Arvizos to Brazil and all that. I think Mike and his people were trying to get rid of them somehow. But I just don't think Mike was into Gavin--and if Mike's not interested, then the kid won't get molested.
I believe very, very strongly that Jordie was molested and I think many of Mike's special friends aren't telling the truth re: their relationship with him, especially Brett Barnes. Wade Robson admitted on the stand that Mike would have conversations with him about how it was okay for a child to sleep in the bed with him, but when pressed further, he had a complete memory lapse! I think these people are hiding something. Jimmy Safechuck's father was paid a $1 million for some reason, as LaToya and Katherine had seen the check stub...
All I'm saying is that I find it peculiar that Mike was accused of sexually molesting Jordie (and Jason Francia, who got $2.2 million) and lo and behold, he did sleep in the bed with young boys, and surprise, he had 2 books that featured semi-nude to completely naked young boys in the 2nd drawer of a locked file cabinet in the lower level closet of his master bedroom. Coincidence? I think not!
J-M-H, where is this information about Jimmy Safechuck's father and LaToya and Katherine as witnesses from?
Desiree, I'm a bit too lazy to put more of my thoughts about whether or not MJ could be a child molester (it's too long...), but I'm not blinded with adoration. I'm a person of logic, not ethics (if it is possible to express it this way), I see faults within arguments of those who think MJ was innocent and those who think MJ was guilty...
My life experience tells me that the truth can be somewhere in the middle or much more exotic than most people think...
jesterjester:
I don't know how it feels to be unsure about the molestations because I feel 100 percent convinced that Michael predated upon his 'special friends'. Am I convincing you (I used to want to be an attorney)? :-)
I bet that sounds macabre to want to 'crucify' a dead man but this is all merely an interest and a hobby. I have more posts to come; writing is a process... But my next should be a fast write, hopefully. I do feel sorry for Michael because he was terribly abused but he was rich enough to seek counseling instead of continue the cycle of abuse. (My next post will show how bad he'd been abused in a sexual way.)
I know you asked it of J-M-H but the info about La Toya and Katherine is from a Geraldo Rivera transcript dated in Feb. 1994 which was printed verbatim in Diane Dimond's book, pages 36-37. La Toya referred to his father as a 'garbage collector' and, in fact, Jimmy's dad was a 'sanitation worker'.
She also mentions the checks payable that she'd seen in her Tel Aviv conference against her brother.
I put this video of her conference up on youtube :-). I was saving it for a post but it's important information:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuoVcrPX13w
Desiree, sorry, but you can't convince me in anything simply because the only person who can convince me is me myself. :-))) (Oh, well, unless you have sex tapes of MJ with boys or something like that :-) ). I mean, I read your blog because I can find some interesting information here, not because I want to be convinced in anything. What's for?.. Perhaps you'll find it strange, but I'm quite indifferent to what the truth could be, I'm just curious about it. I prefer not to make my mind - it helps to be open to any information and to estimate it reasonably.
@J-M-H
Since you mentioned's Ray Chandler's website; in his rebuttal of redemption he claims 'Hughes failed to mention that child pornography was found at Jackson’s home in 1993'. What happened to this child pornography and why wasn't MJ arested for it?
Re your earlier comment re the Chandler-Dave conversation: Assuming the allegations were true, what lesson of integrity was Evan planning to teach Jordie? Was he planning to go to court and put MJ in jail and walk out with no money to show money cannot pay for that? Because I thought that was integrity. Why negotiate with MJ, if he thought he was evil and sexually molested his son, if he indeed had integrity?
And regarding MJ getting the marks on his penis altered in Europe - then you must believe Sneddon was lying re the match, isn't it? So was there a match or wasn't it?
Sly, where did you read the penis markings got altered, in Europe? I only recently found Desiree's blog, so I haven't read all of her posts, yet. However, the inside source I know in Europe said the child's description of the markings was accurate. I was also told Michael wasn't as nice as his image led people to believe. You don't know how Michael and his staff got the Chandlers to sign the settlement agreement.
jesterjester:
Well, as long as you see what I write as worthwhile, that's fine. However, I do encourage you to go and search out your own information that is not on a blog.
This all feels holistic (at least at this point) to me because I've researched it myself and am merely compiling my data. Because I have been on the opposite end; I've been the fan who believed 100 percent in Michael's innocence. But since researching for myself, ruminating over the spoils, and coming into contact with a source close to Michael because of having this blog, I have changed my stance. However, what I write may not answer all your questions regarding Michael's pedophilia issues, regardless of what I have found.
Sly,
I don't know why he called those books child pornography because they aren't legally considered child porn in the US. But legal semantics aside, I can understand how people could think those books were child porn because let's be real, why would you want a book filled with naked boys and close up shots of their penises if you didn't get off on looking at them? I think that was an honest mistake and I don't think that he was trying to mislead the public saying there was porn when there wasn't. I know he was referring to the books. And it is a glaring admission of fact if you don't say that Mike had them in his possession. In the Lanning pdf, those materials would be considered child erotica. Mike had them, I believe very strongly, because the books fed some sexual need. Plus, those books were locked away, unlike his other books. Bottom line to me is that he was accused of sexual molestation of a child and surprise, he had 2 books filled with naked boys in the same age range as the victim and most--if not all--of his special friends. That's solid circumstantial evidence.
Btw, Geraldine Hughes' book is a load of bullshit. She knows nothing and anyone who believes anything she said needs to enter reality. Like sofi mentioned before, she said Jordie was white but at the same time she says she was there and had seen and met the boy on two occasions while working for Rothman, so she should know he is of mixed race. A tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive, LOL...
And I never said that it was true that Mike had marks on his penis removed in Europe. I merely meant that if it was true than I can see why the medical records disappeared when requested by law enforcement. Besides, let's say he did want marks removed. I don't think hydroquinone works that fast. I've used it and it at least takes 2-3 months for significant fading to take place. Plus, if we are to judge the difference between his white color and brown color, I don't believe any mark would have been completely faded by the time of his strip search; basically there would still be a remnant of pigment left as to identify a 'telltale' splotch. But I'm not saying any of this happened. And come on now, Sneddon did not perjure himself with regards to the 'unimpeachable' photos he wanted to submit in court as evidence. There obviously was a match that as stated in the transcript by Zonen "would show that at least with this one child, the relationship was more than innocent". The State wouldn't make a fool of themselves when the world was watching if those photos were didn't match.
(cont'd)
Sly,
Just because you think that isn't integrity to 'negotiate' is your opinion. That doesn't mean he was lying because he negotiated. Maybe he wanted to see if they could work it out of court; obviously Mike did because he settled for $15.3 million. But didn't it all end up in the hands of police? Why ever go to a mandatory reporter (Dr. Mathis Abrams) if you just wanted money and it was a lie? Some say to put pressure on Mike to pay up, but let's not forget that Evan and his attorney would open themselves up to being investigated for extortion (which they were, and it was dropped because no evidence of extortion could be found), which if they were lying and it was proven they would have found themselves in federal prison. They were already getting death threats so just imagine if Jordie testified. I can see why they settled, because some fans are crazy enough to go through and kill. And I rather get something than nothing, that's my stance. If I was raped, I would want that person to rot in jail and I would never back down. But I might just take $15.3 million if the man who raped me was a beloved international superstar worth a billion dollars. It's like until you are faced with that situation, you can't really say what you'd do. But just because you settle doesn't mean a crime never happened.
I think that's the problem is that we assume that to be a believable victim, you have to be an angel from heaven and be pure and spotless. And likewise, all criminals have to be evil and dirty and poor and violent. That's not reality. Mike was a goody two shoes so no one thought he would ever hurt a child, even though in retrospect, I could see the pedophilia in the way he obsessed over children and had special friends--who all were in a specific age range and looked pretty similar-- over ever being with women. Plus he insisted on sleeping in the bed with these special friends and always maintained that he wasn't going to stop. Like I said, his behavior provides strong circumstantial evidence for his guilt.
@ Len,
I was merely answering to a couple of comments J-M-H wrote above - he/she mentioned the markings alteration hypothesis.
I am not implying I know anything - I just read in the Dave - Evan transcript that Evan Chandler thought MJ was evil, yet he went to have a discussion and negociate with him.
@ J-M-H
I agree with you re the multi-million dollar settlement - a few millions are a few millions, it's 'ugly' to say that, but that amount can heal a lot of wounds, especially in a case like this where it appears the kid was not actually raped and not violently handled and the abuse stopped before the kid even realized he was abused. It is this amount that causes most of my doubts actually...
@J-M-H (ctd.)
re the child porn, I don't quite agree though - Ray sounds too smart and too accurate on other terms to make this mistake, but nevermind.
what i can't get my head around re these books though is: if MJ thought to lock them up and hide them, how come Adrian M. had the key to his super secret drawer? If he wanted to hide them, why not keep all keys?
Sly:
I know your comments are directed at J-M-H (J-M-H is a female, by the way :-) ) but I'd like to answer...
I think you are splitting hairs re: Ray Chandler and his assertion that Boys Will Be Boys and The Boy were child porn. As J-M-H mentioned in her comment, these books featured naked and semi-nude boys, some with their penises revealed.
If you read the Ken Lanning pdf I linked in the footnote for number 2 above, these books are child erotica.
I think it was a political statement for Ray to refer to the books as child porn, even though they are legal to possess. Alternately, his 'mistake' could be seen as just stating the obvious: a man accused (or, in Ray's belief, guilty) of molesting a young boy possesses two books featuring nude boys. Putting two and two together, Ray says these explicit books were kept by Michael for the purposes of pedophilic sexual gratification.
Just because the police found no child porn (legal definition, remember, not common sense definition) at Neverland doesn't mean Ray is misleading the public for the purposes of libeling Michael while lining his pockets.
As for why Michael allowed Adrian McManus to have a key to his file cabinet if he wanted to hide them: based on the numerous anecdotes of employees saying they saw 'odd behavior' from Michael with kids, I doubt he even had respect for his staff in general. He probably thought of them as so worthless that he didn't need to hide his proclivity. 'She was just a maid, after all,' he'd say. 'All I'd have to do if she said anything against me is deny it. No one would believe a lowly maid.'
And, apparently, that's true, isn't it?
I don't think Michael was hiding them from his staff; he was most likely keeping them 'near' for use whenever he felt like it.
You know, Sly, these are very stubborn questions. I am against censorship so what you say will never not be posted but I have to wonder if you have even tried to ask yourself why Michael behaved in such a way? I realize you like the guy but if you find Evan 'suspicious', you need to place the magnifying glass over Michael as well.
Because the guy behaved like a guilty man, whether he can moonwalk or not.
This is a group dialectical process, although, seeing that this is my blog, I have no intention of changing my opinion on Michael (unless presented with better evidence than I have encountered). Yet, even though you say you have doubts, you seem to want to convert others!
You'd rather him be innocent and I 'get it'. But to ask these splitting hairs questions so people have to defend their viewpoints to you when--let's be real now, Sly--you have no intention of giving a little, this all becomes tiring, annoying. It's no one's job to convince you; likewise, I am the wrong person (trust me) to bait.
Prove why you are right. Don't tell me you don't know if Michael's innocent or guilty because it is obvious that you think he is closer to innocence. However, given my researching and ruminations, I just disagree. I more than disagree; I'd be confident enough to wager money that he's guilty, given what I've encountered. You explain to me otherwise.
I enjoy a challenge and I find these exchanges stimulating but I think you may want to read the Evan/Dave convo again. You may want to research a little more.
There exists a fine line between wanting to keep an open mind and being obstinate, Sly. Just sayin'...
I remember there was a story talking about how Michael was rude to his employees. Not caring about if they saw dirty child-pornography-lite books (or porn, as evidenced at trial) wouldn't surprise me! He didn't see them as equals; McManus was nothing to him.
Desiree, what made you think that your blog is a sole source of information for me?.. Actually it's very far from it. :-))
Re so called child erotic: to be fair to MJ there were only these two books with naked or semi-naked boys and plenty of books and magazines with naked women, some straight porn I believe, as well as several books that personally I can describe as homoerotic photo art (with adult naked boys in them :-) ). All these materials were seized from Neverland in 2003. Never stumbled upon a list of what was foun in Neverland in 1993...
jesterjester:
I never thought what I wrote was a 'sole' source for you. I was just saying that many people should know that reading a blog--whether it is this one or one like Vindicate MJ, for example--is just not good enough.
You know, when I believed Michael was innocent, I used to read blogs about his troubles instead of going straight to the source. And these were blogs appealing only to what I wanted to believe at the time. When I started researching on my own and reading documents, books, and news stories, I realized I had been wrong; he was a pedophile and he was guilty of molesting Jordie and Jason Francia.
A writer's bias--whether they say one exists or not--will prevent a 100 percent transmission of the 'facts'. Writing these posts sometimes involves a winnowing out of what I find unnecessary (although I think I am very fair and scrupulously truthful). I think blogs can provide a perspective but are definitely nothing in comparison to private study of the evidence available.
Re: the books: I think you should read the Ken Lanning pdf, as well as the list of books that were seized in 2003. Often pedophiles are sex-obsessed and possess large quantities of explicit material, many times adult in nature. However, if you read the Lanning pdf (linked in the number 2 footnote above), many of the nudist magazines found at Neverland (and there were many!) correlate with what pedophiles typically have in their homes (according to Lanning, who was a former FBI agent and specialized in the field of child sexual exploitation). It should be noted that these nudist magazines had naked children in them.
As for the 'straight porn', I still wonder why he kept all of that out in the open. It seems like a lure now that I think about it. The homoerotic books... well, he was gay(-leaning)...
You won't find a list of what was found in 1993 because I believe there was a deliberate purpose behind the general openness of the 2003-2005 issue. This is just speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if Sneddon, having known what a prolific molester Michael was, released the documents to show 'This is the type of crap we found in his house, even in 1993! He's a predator!'
It would jive with the 'leak' of the Grand Jury testimonies because we all know that was Sneddon's doing.
Allegedly, Michael's chauffeur Gary Hearn delivered two briefcases of undisclosed materials to Anthony Pellicano before the 1993 raid. Pellicano's ex-wife attested to receiving them because he had not been home. There were rumors it contained child porn.
Desiree, I'm slightly perplexed. :-) Of course all bloggers and authors of the books are somewhat biased and it's better to study all the sources of information and to evaluate their credibility...
I hope it was for other possible readers of your blog. :-))
I read blogs etc. to track down possible sources of information mostly. Normally I don't enter in any discussions with authors. I don't post comments on VindicateMJ, for example, though I don't read them thoroughly, some things there are just laughable. I'm just too lazy to debate, it's not my goal in any proximity, though sometimes putting thoughts on paper helps to understand certain things.
Of course I read a paper about what was found in MJ's house and estimated it myself.
Btw he was not leaning to be gay, he was gay (gay as in having sex with adult males), I'm 99,9% sure about it, though I can't prove it (I can't disclose my sources of information), so I don't insist on anyone believing me. :-)) Actually it makes situation with him being a pedophile at the same time a little bit more complicated.
Trying to break through Lanning's pdf right now.
Don't be perplexed; I'm not trying to talk down to you if that's what you think. You said you were old enough to have a 13-year-old son, so I'm assuming you are older than me? (I'll be 22 early next year, not that my age diminishes my credibility but I myself am a bit of an ageist towards people younger than I.)
I enjoy debating people and do it frequently. I actually don't like the fact I cannot comment on Vindicate MJ, for example. Sparing matches tend to get you thinking on your toes and sharpen your critical thinking skills. But I believe they may be intimidated or something...?
If you ever track down links to info, I'd like if you'd share it here, especially if you find it pertinent; sometimes I run into walls researching. Besides, I, too, have bouts of laziness in researching, especially when I know I won't get far.
No, I agree with you that he was gay, but I put in a qualifier because, according to a source, he was in a long, tumultuous, sometimes abusive (him abusing her) relationship with Grace Rwaramba. Not that that wasn't obvious but that's what's keeping me from saying he was 100 percent gay. But he definitely wasn't straight. Sometimes, for gay men, there is a woman with whom they bond and they disregard the fact she is a woman (the legend Little Richard had a woman just like this, seeing he is mostly gay, although when he returns to religion he abandons his flesh, so to speak; if I'm correct--and I'm too lazy to fact check--I believe he wrote the song 'Lucille' about her). I think Grace was that woman for Michael.
Other than that, he was gay. I believe everything I've written so far on his homosexuality and I believe Jason Pfeiffer; I have proof. There have already been many people who've talked about his homosexuality.
And, according to the same source, whom I trust, he was a pedophile, not that that wasn't totally obvious either. You can be gay and a pedophile. I don't think that is complicated at all; some pedophiles are non-exclusive types and will have sex with adults and children but, at the end of the day, they prefer children, which clearly he did.
(I will be at school until 6pm so if you leave a comment in reply, it won't be published as quickly... :-) )
I meant to add... You know, I still don't know where you got this idea I assumed I was a definitive source on Michael Jackson for you, jesterjester.
Anyway, I guess I kind of don't understand how some people can encounter evidence of this guy's guilt and pedophilia and still have questions. That type of undecidedness is just odd to me. At the end of the day, no one's opinion on these matters change what could have happened to Jordie Chandler and all of the other boys he may have molested.
Benefit of the doubt is one thing but many people would do well by exercising a little common sense. I strongly believe it is because he was a celebrity, that's the reason he isn't gone over with a fine toothed comb like his accusers and, of course, that doesn't sit well with me, this difference in privilege.
I myself have a disdain for celebrities in general and am a tabloid magazine devotee. At least in the case of American tabloids, typically when a celebrity says something is untrue, many times it turns out to be factual. Tabloids are great sources of info if one knows how to read them correctly.
The way I go about looking for evidence or looking at evidence is this: if I can cross-reference it with something else, I give it more legitimacy. If I can't, I keep it on my mental back-burner until I can. Also, if it doesn't make sense logically, it probably isn't true, although something that is fantastical doesn't necessarily mean it is senseless.
That was the point of this entry; Victor G's book is legit because it conforms to all of the above criteria at least 90% of the time.
My sister asked me this morning if you guys annoyed me and I told her no because I evaluate other people's opinions rigorously and hold my own above everyone else's. If presented with facts, you cannot dispute them (I am more flexible regarding my beliefs than it seems; I only go where the evidence goes, which is why I switched on Michael) and that is the only problem I have with some people.
The novelist Stephen King said: 'The definition of an asshole is someone who doesn't believe what they see.' I agree with him.
I know Evan Chandler acted strange in that he negotiated with Michael Jackson before going to the police. However, I also realize life isn't like a movie and doesn't always follow a set of rules. You'd expect a parent to act differently but nothing's really paradigmatic when it comes to sex crimes. Michael's behavior, over Evan's, based upon my research, was odd, if I were to be generous.
Anyway, jesterjester, I am curious as to what other Michael Jackson blogs you read that contain information. Are any of them out to prove his guilt? I'd like links! ;-)
Jesterjester,
I used to believe Michael Jackson didn't molest children and just didn't understand why it is inappropriate for a grown man to have little-boy sleepovers. Then I met somebody on the inside who elightened me, even though I really didn't want to hear the details. Michael was a pedophile. If he hadn't been Michael Jackson with the money and clout to force people's silence, he would have been sent to prison.
Now, pedophiles do have sexual relations with adults, and although most pedophiles are straight (Yes, there are gay and bisexual pedophiles.) and most victims are little girls, a pedophile mainly just wants whatever child's body is available. Knowing what I know, there is no doubt those boys were sexually abused.
I don't think it matters how many books Michael had with naked boys in them. The bottom line is he had them and wrote something pecular in one of them.
Desiree,
don't you hate getting things lost in translation? That's one of the reasons I hate the internet because sometimes your typed words can get misconstrued. I never thought you were the definitive source on Wacko Jacko, but I won't lie and say that I do hold your opinion to be valid. i feel the same way about other sources of information too. Some people hate Maureen Orth, but I think she is extremely smart and her late husband Tim Russert was the former president of NBC News. She has clout with me, esp. since her first article "Nightmare in Neverland" was extremely fair and all her subsequent articles showed that she had obviously encountered info that convinced her Mike had a prurient interest in boys.
I agree with what you said too, I hold my opinion to be the most important because at the end of the day, my opinion is what matters in my life. As JesterJester had said only I can convince me! LOL
But what I don't understand is that people can't even see that there is some suspicion around his behavior. I don't want to make it seem that I think that Mike is the worst person ever in the world, but he had a problem. I won't lie and say I didn't initially read sources looking for evidence that Mike was framed. But as I personally researched more and looked at a variety of sources, I've become convinced that he was a pedophile. He was also gay too, but like you said, someone who has sex with adults can most definitely be a pedophile. It's called a "non exclusive type" with in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual produced by the American Psychiatric Association. There are "exclusive types" that can't perform with adults and just like kids, as well. Mike preferred children but also liked adults.
@ JesterJester
Please can you provide some links to other Michael Jackson blogs? I always feel that most people think he is innocent (because they are fans) so it's hard to find other blogs that are more balanced or think he was guilty. I just like hearing other people's take on his guilt! LOL
I'll answer to your last question first: actually I don't read any blogs on MJ on a regular basis (only yours) because I have only stumbled upon blogs of devoted MJ fans with very poor factual material. It wasn't interesting at all. I wanted to make a blog on MJ myself, but my lazyness prevented me from doing it. It's better to do it in English (more interesting since it can attract more readers with some valuable information), but since I have to check a lot of words in a dictionary - it's annoying. :-).
I read some MJ sites (fans are are mind-boggling, but sometimes they post links and grains of things that can lead to new researches), tabloids and entire mass-media (well, you're right, it's possible to find some information there, but it should be estimated very carefully, non-tabloid mass-media as well as tabloids) and books (the same thing as with mass media actually) that are available online. And all other things available with the help of Google. :-)) Even photobanks are very helpful.
Of course common sense says that MJ's interest in boys was too suspicious, he made suspicious things, etc. You say that his celebity status makes people blind, but his celebrity status helped him to get whatever he wanted, from a pretty figurine to exotic pets to "friendship" with whole families. Could all these boys be just a new whim of non-sexual origin?.. I don't know, but I don't think it's impossible.
You say that you don't understand how some people can encounter evidence of MJ's guilt and pedophilia and still have questions.
Well, personally I didn't yet encounter evidences that I could perceive as really utterly convincing, I mean convincing to a point there would be no doubts. (And it is possible that you just know more than me and have better sources of information). :-)
Desiree, good news. Somebody got back to me. Said individual will send me an email, soon.
Len:
That is good news... Be sure to use that God-given feminine charm. ;-)
I know it doesn't always work (I'm thinking of an ex, for reference) but it sure is our best weapon.
LOL...
Desiree,
I admitted from the start that I tend to look for flaws in the arguments against his innocence because I am biased. However, I did agree that the convo between dave and evan is no way proof of extorsion. I also agreed that the amount of the settlement in the jordie case is at least a big cause...so, I am not coming here to deny facts or lie about my beliefs, let alone try to convince someone else. I am also not coming here to have a contradictory dialogue with you or any other people who post comments, and I honestly appreciate your research. I am mainly trying to establish (for myself) what is known fact and what is alleged.
Sly:
Well, that's fine.
I'm a pretty easy-going person, I can assure you, but you know... ;-)
I don't have a problem defending my assumptions or beliefs or anything I write on my blog to the readers. I publish the content because I believe in it and, if I change my mind, I'll add an ETA at the bottom.
You know, I'm glad you at least have the sense to question, even if you still want Michael to be innocent. I was on the other blog, Vindicate MJ, and they refuse to have a debate unless I can somehow concede partly to Michael's innocence. Oh, and I cannot debate the settlements, which, like you, I agree that the amounts are far too suspicious to just sweep under the rug!
And, of course, some of the commenters on there like to call naysayers to Michael's 'innocence' pedophiles, especially since I own and have read numerous times MJWML. SMH. Clearly, that is no way to debate!
I like a challenge--albeit not one predicated upon continuing to repeat the same thing over and over--so I appreciate you reading my blog, Sly.
Victor Gutierrez is a liar... I'm from Spain and I've seen him many times in tabloid talk shows in spanish tv and he lies all the time. Every time he comes to talk in spanish tv he earns a lot of money talking bullshit about MJ and about other celebrities. That book is just crap and I hope Gutierrez will burn in hell as Evan Chandler is doing since he killed himself last year... did he felt remorse perhaps??
julianaka:
I wish I could speak Spanish so I could see some of the Youtube videos with Gutierrez in them.
Anyway, have you read Gutierrez's book? And I'm talking the edition I have in the above picture? If you have not read the book, you cannot bash Gutierrez on this particular topic.
Also, if we are talking about certain individuals in Hell, please include Michael Jackson in that lot. He molested little boys, was a pedophile, and a junkie/drug addict; I'm pretty sure all of that will place you far away from the bosom of Abraham!
Evan Chandler killed himself because he had a painful disease, not because of Michael Jackson's death. I cannot believe fans even think that garbage. Michael molested his son and destroyed the Chandler family; if Evan killed himself for anything beyond his own pain, it was because of that. Again, not Jacko.
It's funny that you can get upset at Gutierrez saying 'lies' (not lies by the way) yet you fans have no sympathy for the likes of Jason Francia and Jordie Chandler, victims of Michael Jackson's pedophilic lust.
If you have evidence that MJWML is fictitious, please provide it. I'd love to hear it, julianaka!
Ok, go here and teach yourself: http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/victor-gutierrez-is-a-link-to-nambla-and-real-pedophiles-was-michaels-persecution-a-big-p-plan/
LOL! Thanks for the link to 'Vindicate MJ'!
I have already been to that site numerous times and have argued with blind fans there so much so that I have been banned.
(If you had actually read this post fully, you'd notice that I linked to their site as a place where they had given up debate so much that they just rather delete my comments!)
No, I think you should stick around (up to you) and learn the truth about Michael Jackson.
Reading Vindicate MJ--with it's poorly written and laughably unconvincing articles--will only turn your brain into mush. Or 'doo doo', as Michael Jackson would say.
But really, if you have evidence (not written by a fan site that only furthers the whole Jacko PR mumbo jumbo) that anything written in Victor Gutierrez's book is fictitious, please provide the evidence. Otherwise I will happily continue to use it as a source of information regarding Jordie Chandler's molestation.
Really, were you serious with that link? ROTFLMAO! Okay...
Desiree,
I've read a couple of your blogs and I'm confused. I haven't been able to quite catch your viewpoint on child molestation. It's quotes such as this one that throws me off:
"Like I said above, there is a clear bias within in favor of pedophilia, though. That might turn some people off..."
May turn some people off???? Yeah, Desiree. Glorifying the sexual exploitation of children is a bit off-putting.
There seems to be a question as to whether a child can be in a consensual relationship with an adult. There's no ambiguity. The answer is, "No."
I also own Victor Gutierrez's book and I can't believe I actually spent $300 thinking it was something hot and juicy. After doing through research, I think it's pretty obvious that "Michael Jackson was my lover" is nothing more but lurid tabloid filth. Victor's book quotes Jordie as saying, "Michael and I were in love. What's so wrong about that?" and Jordie talks about how much he loves and misses his "lover" Michael and how he was sad that their relationship was over, But in Jordie's interview with late therapist Richard Gardner, he calls Michael Jackson "manipulative" and says that he doesn't miss him and that he is happy to be away from him and has gotten rid of all his habits, which totally contradicts Victor's book. Victor also claimed in his book to have spoken to Joy Robson and her son wade but both have confirmed that they never even met the man as well as Brett Barnes through facebook. This guy definitely has a very sick twisted imagination judging by the way he writes. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a pedophile himself.
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